The Myths of Circumstantial Evidence

[Steve_uk]

Ok some Facts - and you don't have to go into any assumptions about why.

They never found JB footprints in any blood
They never found any forensic evidence of his exit from the house
There was never any clothes /gloves found hidden or burnt
No one saw him go to WHF or leave the house and arrive back home
They never found any fibre from the gloves he was supposed to have been wearing
They never found any physical evidence of a fight on him ( or Sheila  for that matter)
They never found ay blood or evidence of him disposing of evidence in his house ( where the police were the next day)
No one saw him disposing of any evidence ( despite the family watching him like a hawk)
There was no evidence on the bike or his car or the wetsuit
No evidence not even one tiny bit was found on any clothes or shoes of blood from any of the victims.

So therefore you think he would have been one of the most meticulous and clever murderers - but no he then apparently told his girlfriend who he was about to break up with.

And don't bore me with the old story he had a month to dispose of everything - unless he was psychic and knew the police were like the keystone cops he did not have a month - it is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on here . Plus according to some he was too busy galavanting around to have time to be scrubbing the bike with bleach

The bike did have yellow,sulphurous mud on it suggesting that it had not been ridden by a lady. Jeremy's clothes had specks of blood on them as disclosed by John Hayward at trial. But I agree his full modus operandi is still a mystery waiting to be explained.

[lookout]

That sort of mud could be peculiar to any area of farmland there. If ridden anywhere near WHF through trails of muddy footprints then it would have a certain amount of yellow mud left there by bootprints/wellingtons,as there had been rain in the area.
We don't know how long the specks of blood had been on his clothing. We'd soon have known if they were relevant.
He was supposed to have had some sort of injuries/burns to his hand as " seen " by AP,but it turned out to be nothing,so they weren't half clutching at straws seeing things that weren't there.

What did EP" find" after a month that they hadn't" found" before ? All those officers initially and nothing untoward to pin the crime on Jeremy,except that nobody liked him.

[susan]

Ok some Facts - and you don't have to go into any assumptions about why.

They never found JB footprints in any blood
They never found any forensic evidence of his exit from the house
There was never any clothes /gloves found hidden or burnt
No one saw him go to WHF or leave the house and arrive back home
They never found any fibre from the gloves he was supposed to have been wearing
They never found any physical evidence of a fight on him ( or Sheila  for that matter)
They never found ay blood or evidence of him disposing of evidence in his house ( where the police were the next day)
No one saw him disposing of any evidence ( despite the family watching him like a hawk)
There was no evidence on the bike or his car or the wetsuit
No evidence not even one tiny bit was found on any clothes or shoes of blood from any of the victims.

So therefore you think he would have been one of the most meticulous and clever murderers - but no he then apparently told his girlfriend who he was about to break up with.

And don't bore me with the old story he had a month to dispose of everything - unless he was psychic and knew the police were like the keystone cops he did not have a month - it is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on here . Plus according to some he was too busy galavanting around to have time to be scrubbing the bike with bleach
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Hello Jan

I don't think the bike was used never did.  From what Scipio has told me not that much blood would have been over the floors think Caroline said Jeremy put towels and cushions on the area where poor Ralph was sitting bent over.  According to Scipio the murderer would not have so much blood on his clothes .  The sad thing is because it was stated by Taff Jones this was 4 murders one suicide the whole crime scene was wrecked so any valuable evidence would have been destroyed.  Such as the clothes in the buckets we don't really know where they came from.  For sake of debate how about Jeremy took a shower the head was hanging down as if it had been used and he could have easily had a change of clothes hidden at the farm I have asked before but nobody seemed to know if the farm had an incinerator if not Jeremy could have bagged his clothes and hid them till he had time to dispose of them he may have not been wearing many Had he changed his clothes he would not have left anything to incriminate him on the window leaving the place if indeed he left that way  The sad things is  I have put all this to you and it could all be wrong and the truth will never be known IMO only one person knows that.  Think EP had a better idea but had no evidence to prove his guilt. Wonder if his clothes could have been burnt in the Aga.

[scipio_usmc]

Ok some Facts - and you don't have to go into any assumptions about why.

They never found JB footprints in any blood
They never found any forensic evidence of his exit from the house
There was never any clothes /gloves found hidden or burnt
No one saw him go to WHF or leave the house and arrive back home
They never found any fibre from the gloves he was supposed to have been wearing
They never found any physical evidence of a fight on him ( or Sheila  for that matter)
They never found ay blood or evidence of him disposing of evidence in his house ( where the police were the next day)
No one saw him disposing of any evidence ( despite the family watching him like a hawk)
There was no evidence on the bike or his car or the wetsuit
No evidence not even one tiny bit was found on any clothes or shoes of blood from any of the victims.

So therefore you think he would have been one of the most meticulous and clever murderers - but no he then apparently told his girlfriend who he was about to break up with.

And don't bore me with the old story he had a month to dispose of everything - unless he was psychic and knew the police were like the keystone cops he did not have a month - it is one of the most stupid arguments I have heard on here . Plus according to some he was too busy galavanting around to have time to be scrubbing the bike with bleach

Police didn't search for fibers so how would they find any?  In any event unless you have somethign to match a fiber to they are worthless.

The killer clearly wore gloves and had blood on his clothing.  Plenty of blood woudl have gotten on the killer while beating Nevill- more than enough for such blood to give away he had beat Nevill severely with the rifle.

Sheila had reason to use gloves or change after murdering everyone and would have had no opportunity to conceal such gloves or clothing which you admit wasn't found at WHF.

Jeremy did indeed have a month to dispose of evidence but he didn't need tha tmonth.  He had the opportunity to dispose of the evidence after leaving WHF before ever calling police.  Since he called police he had all the time he wanted to wash, change and dispose of evidence. 

So let's compare- Sheila no motive to change her clothing and wash up and no opportunity to get rid of such so that they would not be found but Jeremy had motive and opportunity.

Closing your eyes to the evidence doesn't make it go away.

 

[Jane]

Police didn't search for fibers so how would they find any?  In any event unless you have somethign to match a fiber to they are worthless.

The killer clearly wore gloves and had blood on his clothing.  Plenty of blood woudl have gotten on the killer while beating Nevill- more than enough for such blood to give away he had beat Nevill severely with the rifle.

Sheila had reason to use gloves or change after murdering everyone and would have had no opportunity to conceal such gloves or clothing which you admit wasn't found at WHF.

Jeremy did indeed have a month to dispose of evidence but he didn't need tha tmonth.  He had the opportunity to dispose of the evidence after leaving WHF before ever calling police.  Since he called police he had all the time he wanted to wash, change and dispose of evidence. 

So let's compare- Sheila no motive to change her clothing and wash up and no opportunity to get rid of such so that they would not be found but Jeremy had motive and opportunity.

Closing your eyes to the evidence doesn't make it go away.

Actually it's only with hindsight that Jeremy had a month to get rid of incriminating evidence. he couldn't have known he had that time so I imagine that he'd have disposed of it asap.

[Steve_uk]

As Susan says one wonders how he disposed of his bloodied clothing and footwear and as April remarks how was he to know that Police wouldn't enter Bourtree Cottage that morning to pick him up and possibly see any blood he had failed to clean up? Along with the possibility of him being spotted either on the bike or on foot it seems he took a great deal of risks to accomplish his mission.

[susan]

As Susan says one wonders how he disposed of his bloodied clothing and footwear and as April remarks how was he to know that Police wouldn't enter Bourtree Cottage that morning to pick him up and possibly see any blood he had failed to clean up? Along with the possibility of him being spotted either on the bike or on foot it seems he took a great deal of risks to accomplish his mission.

Hello steve I am of the opinion that he did shower and had fresh clothes at the farm as I said earlier we do not know what facilities were available at the farm for disposing of rubbish most farms have something for rubbish he probably only had a pair of shorts and a tee shirt and soft trainer type shoes they would have burnt in the Aga but they may have taken hours to burn so I think we can dismiss that. He would have all that planned in advance he would not have taken them back to his cottage maybe he burnt them at the farm somewhere outside who knows.

[lookout]

 The burning of clothes,etc would have created a great deal of smoke and I'm sure would have drawn attention from someone thinking the place was on fire.
I don't doubt that police looked at any remains of anything in the ash-can.

[scipio_usmc]

As Susan says one wonders how he disposed of his bloodied clothing and footwear and as April remarks how was he to know that Police wouldn't enter Bourtree Cottage that morning to pick him up and possibly see any blood he had failed to clean up? Along with the possibility of him being spotted either on the bike or on foot it seems he took a great deal of risks to accomplish his mission.

Some washing took place in the upstairs bathroom, the light was even left on.  At minimum he washed his hands and face to make sure he didn't have blood on his skin.  He could have changed his clothing there as well- which would make sense to do and then stuff them in a bag.  He could either dispose of them on his way back home or simply hide them on his way back home in a spot he planned to return to later in order to permanently dispose of them.  It is easy to hide things in the woods, stormdrain, to bury them or even to dump them in someone's garbage can or dumpster. People are not going to notice an extra bag in their garbage can or dumpster. Since his place was not thoroughly searched we don't have any way to know if he initially hid them at his place or not. 
 
Disposing of the evidence wasn't a tricky proposition that is easy the hard part was carrying out the murders in a way that looked like Sheila was responsible and had killed herself and he botched that.

[Steve_uk]

The burning of clothes,etc would have created a great deal of smoke and I'm sure would have drawn attention from someone thinking the place was on fire.
I don't doubt that police looked at any remains of anything in the ash-can.

It does seem strange. I wish all these loose ends were tied up once and for all.

[Steve_uk]

Some washing took place in the upstairs bathroom, the light was even left on.  At minimum he washed his hands and face to make sure he didn't have blood on his skin.  He could have changed his clothing there as well- which would make sense to do and then stuff them in a bag.  He could either dispose of them on his way back home or simply hide them on his way back home in a spot he planned to return to later in order to permanently dispose of them.  It is easy to hide things in the woods, stormdrain, to bury them or even to dump them in someone's garbage can or dumpster. People are not going to notice an extra bag in their garbage can or dumpster. Since his place was not thoroughly searched we don't have any way to know if he initially hid them at his place or not. 
 
Disposing of the evidence wasn't a tricky proposition that is easy the hard part was carrying out the murders in a way that looked like Sheila was responsible and had killed herself and he botched that.

Didn't the Police check the drains and the paths for tyre treads? A bit risky burying bloodied clothes and he could hardly enter Bourtree Cottage in sneakers trailing blood everywhere.

[Jane]

Didn't the Police check the drains and the paths for tyre treads? A bit risky burying bloodied clothes and he could hardly enter Bourtree Cottage in sneakers trailing blood everywhere.

Steve, they MAY have done, but not immediately. What would have been the point? They were convinced that it was literally an inside job, ie 4 murders and a suicide.

[susan]

It does seem strange. I wish all these loose ends were tied up once and for all.

Steve Jeremy would not take the risk of arriving back at his cottage with blood stained clothes he could not be sure he would be seen I think he got rid of them before he arrived home if we knew the area we would know where he may have burnt them as that was the only safe way to dispose of them.  Lookout is right too much smoke would have been pouring from the chimney and it would smell strong as well so forget that idea I put up.

[scipio_usmc]

It does seem strange. I wish all these loose ends were tied up once and for all.

The only way to know whether he laundered his clothing, disposed of it or did both (he could have laundered some items he wore and disposed of others) and where would be if he decided to tell the truth about such. There is no other way to find out.

[Steve_uk]

The only way to know whether he laundered his clothing, disposed of it or did both (he could have laundered some items he wore and disposed of others) and where would be if he decided to tell the truth about such. There is no other way to find out.

Sometimes when I have nicked myself shaving the washing powder doesn't remove the stain from the shirt completely so I'm still baffled as to where all the blood went if none of Jeremy's was found at the White House..