Author Topic: if the jury had known that julie mugford had committed criminal acts would they  (Read 5636 times)

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Offline notsure

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Hi

if you were a jury member and you had been told about Julie Mugfords criminal activity would ypu have thought differently about her testimony and did the jury have a right to know

Offline Jane

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Hi

if you were a jury member and you had been told about Julie Mugfords criminal activity would ypu have thought differently about her testimony and did the jury have a right to know


Emotionally I'd LOVE to say that of course the jury had a right to know, but as any past crimes the defendant may have committed aren't revealed to the jury, I suppose it must work both ways.

Offline Jan

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From what I remember I think they were aware of some of her involvement for example the break in to the caravan park - but they were not aware of the official document which gave her immunity as she was a witness - I think that might have influenced them.

I am not sure she was a convincing witness as reportedly she was in tears most of the time under the defences questioning.


Offline scipio_usmc

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Hi

if you were a jury member and you had been told about Julie Mugfords criminal activity would ypu have thought differently about her testimony and did the jury have a right to know

No because the way the jury found out about them was because she admitted to them.  The most important thing to look at is her claims with respect to the case.  To evaluate whether her claims make sense, whether the claims are something that would be made up, whether the claims have support...

Jeremy calling her the night of the murders was a big mistake. 

Jeremy calling her before he called police was an even bigger mistake.
 
Jeremy lying and claiming he called police before her and thus being caught in a lie is an even bigger mistake still.

Why would he be calling her at all let alone before police?  This supports that he called her to tell her he killed them like she claims he did.  This is the kind of thing jurors look at.

He also called her around 6AM (well prior to police going inside and finding the bodies) telling her not to go to work because he was going to need her to speak to police to help him.  This is supportive also of her story.

In looking at her story in great detail one finds she provides a lot of detail that is difficult to make up and not likely to be made up.  Furthermore, if she wanted to get him in trouble by pretending he killed them she would not make up a hit man account.  She knew he had no alibi so had no reason to make up a hitman doing it.

The most important thing though is that the physical evidence corroborated her story and so did the fact that Jeremy called police.

The easiest way to prove her a liar would be if the physical evidence established Sheila were responsible.  But the evidence proves she wasn't responsible but rather was murdered and framed thus supporting Julie's account that Jeremy admitted he had them all murdered and framed Sheila.  That he called police to report it means he had to be responsible for the murders because he had no innocent way to find out.

Julie's testimony was credible based on the totality of the circumstances.

Jeremy's claims are evaluated on the same basis- by looking at his claims not by saying simply that since he had a criminal past it means nothing he says should be believed no matter what.  The problem with his claims is most were not credible.  For instance, his claim the gun was often put away without the scope and moderator attached is not credible, he removed the scope himself because it would inhibit his ability to shoot people at close quarters.  His claim he got the gun out to shoot rabbits and left it and spare bullets out is not credible.  In fact, he left out too many bullets for his story to be true. His claim he received a call from Neivll is not credible, apart from the fact Sheila didn't do anything so there is no reason why Nevill would call to say she had, Nevill would not have needed to call Jeremy to help disarm her even if she did grab a gun.  Worse though, Jeremy removed the phone from the master bedroom so there was no phone to use to call Jeremy with.  The murders started in the master bedroom.  The killer entered and fired 4 shots into Nevill and 6 into June. There was no phone to use before the shots were fired. After the shots were fired Nevill's voicebox was severed and he could not speak.  A call to Jeremy was impossible.

All of this plays into whether to believe Julie.  The evidence convicts Jeremy independent of Julie's testimony but her testimony and the evidence complement one another. That is extremely powerful when it comes to how a jury looks at things.     
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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It would have made a Hell of a difference if the jury had known the full story--------and I mean full !!

Offline Caroline

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Hi

if you were a jury member and you had been told about Julie Mugfords criminal activity would ypu have thought differently about her testimony and did the jury have a right to know

They did know.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Patti

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Its normally unprecedented that the jury are told of previous offences. I suppose it was the defense team that sanctioned it.  Normally previous offences are read out after the verdict, so this is very rare.  ;D

Offline SaraT

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I would have had more of a problem with her supposedly knowing JB to be guilty, lying on her statements, viewing the bodies which must have been harrowing and then carrying on sleeping with him and going away with him and never having long conversations with him about his guilt and what exactly happened on the night.

Offline scipio_usmc

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I would have had more of a problem with her supposedly knowing JB to be guilty, lying on her statements, viewing the bodies which must have been harrowing and then carrying on sleeping with him and going away with him and never having long conversations with him about his guilt and what exactly happened on the night.

That she admitted to these things helps suggest her contemporaneous honesty though.  When people try weaseling their way out completely then it makes you wonder.  She didn't simply say she was scared of him killing her so felt she had better lie. She admitted she wanted to help him and over time the guilt built up. She didn't make up lies though, at first she more or less simply refused to tell police everything she knew.

Consider the difference if Mike simply didn't tell us everything he knows as opposed to all the fairytales he tells. They are both deceptive but one makes it hard to believe anything he claims at all.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Patti

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That she admitted to these things helps suggest her contemporaneous honesty though.  When people try weaseling their way out completely then it makes you wonder.  She didn't simply say she was scared of him killing her so felt she had better lie. She admitted she wanted to help him and over time the guilt built up. She didn't make up lies though, at first she more or less simply refused to tell police everything she knew.

Consider the difference if Mike simply didn't tell us everything he knows as opposed to all the fairytales he tells. They are both deceptive but one makes it hard to believe anything he claims at all.

Really?

I suspect there is some element of truth behind her statements. JM never showed any emotion what so ever after the crime. Nor did we see any emotion at the funerals. She appeared absent form reality in my opinion.  But, I can understand if she loved Jeremy she would shield him to the bitter end, but she did not do this, did she? JM was bitter, jealous not only of Jeremy's relationship with Brett, but with other women.  She hung on, yet she claimed she knew, therefore if this was true she is an accessory and not a witness.

I feel for her, in a way, for she so scorned she went to far and we will never know how much influence Sjones had on her. We don't know what was said to her during her interviews we only ever hear her statements.  "I have been asked" Well, I would like to see the questions put to her. It has also been said that she was difficult to cross examine...for she cried/sobbed throughout the trial.

JM was never in any danger was she from Jeremy? Throughout his statements he never once said anything bad about her. In fact the following year he sent her a valentine card...Why?
 

Offline SaraT

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That she admitted to these things helps suggest her contemporaneous honesty though.  When people try weaseling their way out completely then it makes you wonder.  She didn't simply say she was scared of him killing her so felt she had better lie. She admitted she wanted to help him and over time the guilt built up. She didn't make up lies though, at first she more or less simply refused to tell police everything she knew

Why would she want to help him if she 'knew' he had carried out five murders? Of people she knew and whose bodies she identified? I had a bid problem with this then and now. I just can't believe it

Offline Caroline

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Why would she want to help him if she 'knew' he had carried out five murders? Of people she knew and whose bodies she identified? I had a bid problem with this then and now. I just can't believe it

She didn't think he had because he told her that he hired a hit man. It does beggar belief that she agreed to identify the bodies - maybe it just didn't seem real and it was something she needed to do?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

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Why would she want to help him if she 'knew' he had carried out five murders? Of people she knew and whose bodies she identified? I had a bid problem with this then and now. I just can't believe it

Because she wanted to marry him.  Some girlfriends actually think it is cool having a dangerous boyfriend and will stand by a killer for that reason.  Others act like a mother, sibling or other relative who decides to protect a family member who has committed murder or other crimes.  Some mother turn their kids in others will lie as much as it takes to help their children and there are even instances of mothers helping dispose of bodies.

Julie didn't like the victims much, she didn't have a strong connection tot hem so it didn't disturb her much.  If he had killed her mother then her reaction would have been far different.  It took time for things to set in and part of her waking up process featured them breaking up.  She wanted to protect him when she loved him and it was necessary to protect him so they could be together.  After the break up she no longer had a reason to keep protecting him.

It is not a coincidence that after people are on the outs with one another that they rat others out by spreading their secrets and the skeletons in their closet- not just former romantic partners but this is true of platonic friends as well.





 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline SaraT

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Because she wanted to marry him.  Some girlfriends actually think it is cool having a dangerous boyfriend and will stand by a killer for that reason.  Others act like a mother, sibling or other relative who decides to protect a family member who has committed murder or other crimes.  Some mother turn their kids in others will lie as much as it takes to help their children and there are even instances of mothers helping dispose of bodies.

Julie didn't like the victims much, she didn't have a strong connection tot hem so it didn't disturb her much.  If he had killed her mother then her reaction would have been far different.  It took time for things to set in and part of her waking up process featured them breaking up.  She wanted to protect him when she loved him and it was necessary to protect him so they could be together.  After the break up she no longer had a reason to keep protecting him.

It is not a coincidence that after people are on the outs with one another that they rat others out by spreading their secrets and the skeletons in their closet- not just former romantic partners but this is true of platonic friends as well.

I do not buy it, under any circumstances

Offline Caroline

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Because she wanted to marry him.  Some girlfriends actually think it is cool having a dangerous boyfriend and will stand by a killer for that reason.  Others act like a mother, sibling or other relative who decides to protect a family member who has committed murder or other crimes.  Some mother turn their kids in others will lie as much as it takes to help their children and there are even instances of mothers helping dispose of bodies.

Julie didn't like the victims much, she didn't have a strong connection tot hem so it didn't disturb her much.  If he had killed her mother then her reaction would have been far different.  It took time for things to set in and part of her waking up process featured them breaking up.  She wanted to protect him when she loved him and it was necessary to protect him so they could be together.  After the break up she no longer had a reason to keep protecting him.

It is not a coincidence that after people are on the outs with one another that they rat others out by spreading their secrets and the skeletons in their closet- not just former romantic partners but this is true of platonic friends as well.

I agree for the most part but I don't think she disliked the twins or Sheila. I can believe that she went along with the murders because she was besotted with him and it certainly isn't unique for women (and some men) to go along with their partner in similar circumstances.
Few people have the imagination for reality