13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[Patti]

The chart looks to be of modern computer creation not the typing fonts of the documents Fletcher created. Moreover, it lacks the markings typical to genuinse case documents.  They have numbers stamped on them reflecting exhibit numbers or pagination from copying. When you send documents to the other side as part of a document production you have your own pagination apart from that original to the document.

I think it was created by someone during the course of the defense effort, compiled by supporters from various documents.

Where is the chart, I am sure Fletcher signed it?  I can only say that DRH/5 was bullet as Hammersley described it...the weight of it was 37. something from memory...

I noted that on a gun forum they said at one time the bullets were 38....but now are 40.

[Patti]

Here are the docs.

[scipio_usmc]

Here are the docs.

The chart is the 3rd image you posted, that is what I asked who created.  It clearly wasn't Fletcher.

[Patti]

The chart is the 3rd image you posted, that is what I asked who created.  It clearly wasn't Fletcher.

I think it was Scip, it was posted by Hartley. Maybe he can confirm?

[scipio_usmc]

I think it was Scip, it was posted by Hartley. Maybe he can confirm?

It's a computer font not typed.  Someone working on the appeal or just trying to help Jeremy constructed it.

[Patti]

It's a computer font not typed.  Someone working on the appeal or just trying to help Jeremy constructed it.

Yeah, I am familiar with the font, could be Old Times Roman. We will have to ask Hartley. It could be from the 2002 COA.

[scipio_usmc]

Yeah, I am familiar with the font, could be Old Times Roman. We will have to ask Hartley. It could be from the 2002 COA.

I'll make you a pinky bet he found it on Sluething for justice and that it was posted there by Mike.

[Patti]

I'll make you a pinky bet he found it on Sluething for justice and that it was posted there by Mike.

I know our Mike spins some tales, but I have never seen a document that is not authentic.....I do believe that Hartley would know. Lets wait and ask him..eh? 

[Patti]

Scip read this

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3781.msg153063.html#msg153063

[scipio_usmc]

I know our Mike spins some tales, but I have never seen a document that is not authentic.....I do believe that Hartley would know. Lets wait and ask him..eh? 

If authentic means something from Jeremy's papers that may be true but many such papers were generated by people working on Jeremy's behalf and possibly even Jeremy himself. That chart seems to be data collected from various sources and complied for defense purposes.

[Patti]

If authentic means something from Jeremy's papers that may be true but many such papers were generated by people working on Jeremy's behalf and possibly even Jeremy himself. That chart seems to be data collected from various sources and complied for defense purposes.

And if it was? 

[scipio_usmc]

And if it was? 

It could have errors for one thing.  Even if accurate it could be providing a false impression in several respects. For instance, suppose Fletcher bothered to write out 22LR in some notes and in others just wrote 22 though he meant 22LR. Many people shorten it by simply writing 22 or 22 rimfire instead of 22LR.  22 usually means 22LR, that is the most popular 22 cartridge. 

Mike took this chart and said it proves some bullets were only 22 not 22LR, ignoring that the default when someone uses .22 rimfire it is 22lr.  If someone means 22 short or 22 long they will say it because these cases are uncommon and even will say 22 Magnum.  22 Magnum is very popular but still not referred to simply as 22.

There is a big difference between Fletcher composing a single document that spells out 22LR for some but not others and him being inconsistent in his usage in multiple documents.  In a single document there logically would be something trying to be conveyed in say 22LR for some but not all. But in various documents there is nothing odd in varying.  I vary and sometimes call 22LR, 22, 22rimfire, 22rf.

I try to be somewhat consistent in my use of terms here to try not to confuse people but don't always stay in habit.  For a long time I called a silencer a sound suppressor because that is the military term and term I am used to using.  To not confuse I have been using the British term sound moderator and for the most part don't slip up but occasionally I do.

This often can and are taken out of context.  Quite obviously Fletcher's use of "whole" is not the definition Mike wants to pretend.  Mike wants to pretend he meant the entire bullet that had been inside the case was recovered.  That's not true though the ones characterized as whole were various sizes and clearly had part of the lead missing. Someone would have to ask him what he meant.  If we had all his testimony and documents we might know the answer but we don't have such.  I have a feeling the defense figured out the answer but either Mike doesn't know or knows but doesn't care.  Mike makes many claims that Jeremy abandoned because they ended up failing. Because we don't have access to everything the defense does he figures we won't know they failed let alone know why they failed.


   

 

   

[Patti]

It could have errors for one thing.  Even if accurate it could be providing a false impression in several respects. For instance, suppose Fletcher bothered to write out 22LR in some notes and in others just wrote 22 though he meant 22LR. Many people shorten it by simply writing 22 or 22 rimfire instead of 22LR.  22 usually means 22LR, that is the most popular 22 cartridge. 

Mike took this chart and said it proves some bullets were only 22 not 22LR, ignoring that the default when someone uses .22 rimfire it is 22lr.  If someone means 22 short or 22 long they will say it because these cases are uncommon and even will say 22 Magnum.  22 Magnum is very popular but still not referred to simply as 22.

There is a big difference between Fletcher composing a single document that spells out 22LR for some but not others and him being inconsistent in his usage in multiple documents.  In a single document there logically would be something trying to be conveyed in say 22LR for some but not all. But in various documents there is nothing odd in varying.  I vary and sometimes call 22LR, 22, 22rimfire, 22rf.

I try to be somewhat consistent in my use of terms here to try not to confuse people but don't always stay in habit.  For a long time I called a silencer a sound suppressor because that is the military term and term I am used to using.  To not confuse I have been using the British term sound moderator and for the most part don't slip up but occasionally I do.

This often can and are taken out of context.  Quite obviously Fletcher's use of "whole" is not the definition Mike wants to pretend.  Mike wants to pretend he meant the entire bullet that had been inside the case was recovered.  That's not true though the ones characterized as whole were various sizes and clearly had part of the lead missing. Someone would have to ask him what he meant.  If we had all his testimony and documents we might know the answer but we don't have such.  I have a feeling the defense figured out the answer but either Mike doesn't know or knows but doesn't care.  Mike makes many claims that Jeremy abandoned because they ended up failing. Because we don't have access to everything the defense does he figures we won't know they failed let alone know why they failed.


   

 

   

Hi Scip

Fletcher describes the bullet as being whole and suggestive of rifle (18)

The weight of DRH/5 is minus its jacket and weighs in at 37 not sure of the weight of a case shell, but when added together it must weigh approximately 40.

If you say sound suppressor, I would still know what you mean..  

[scipio_usmc]

Hi Scip

Fletcher describes the bullet as being whole and suggestive of rifle (18)

The weight of DRH/5 is minus its jacket and weighs in at 37 not sure of the weight of a case shell, but when added together it must weigh approximately 40.

If you say sound suppressor, I would still know what you mean..

Jacket and case are different. A jacket is a copper/bronze etc coating around the sides and front of a bullet.  If someone calls a case a jacket they are being imprecise. None of the bullets recovered from the scene were jacketed they were simply all lead bullets.  A hollow point is all lead but has a channel in the center of the front. A solid bullet AKA lead round nose has no such channel.

A cartridge is made up of the bullet, the case and the propellant (gunpowder/primer). In a rimfire cartridge the primer is built into the rim of the case. Then gunpowder is loaded into the case. Then the bullet is loaded into the case. The bullet weight of the subsonic Hollow rounds were 40 grains at the time of the murders. That is just the bullet weight not the weight of the entire cartridge.  The entire cartridge would weigh more than 50 grains.  The case, primer and gunpowder combined weigh more than 10 grains.  How much more depends. A subsonic cartridge is generally filled with less powder than a cartridge that has higher velocity. You will never see makers list the weights of their complete cartridges they only give you the bullet weight, you have to weigh the cartridges yourself and often will find very slight variations. Some diehards will weigh their 22 cartridges in advance so they can group ones of the same precise weight together for use. Even though the difference is 1000th of a gram you will see some oddball people trying to weigh and sort them in groups.

What Mike posted is either talking about weights well before the murders or has a misprint on the bullet weight. The 1984 catalog lists 40 grain for both of their subsonics- they sold a solid subsonic and hollow point. I can't find any records of a 35 grain high velocity round either only 37.5 grains so the document probably is wrong on several fronts or is extremely old.





 

   

[Patti]

Jacket and case are different. A jacket is a copper/bronze etc coating around the sides and front of a bullet.  If someone calls a case a jacket they are being imprecise. None of the bullets recovered from the scene were jacketed they were simply all lead bullets.  A hollow point is all lead but has a channel in the center of the front. A solid bullet AKA lead round nose has no such channel.

A cartridge is made up of the bullet, the case and the propellant (gunpowder/primer). In a rimfire cartridge the primer is built into the rim of the case. Then gunpowder is loaded into the case. Then the bullet is loaded into the case. The bullet weight of the subsonic Hollow rounds were 40 grains at the time of the murders. That is just the bullet weight not the weight of the entire cartridge.  The entire cartridge would weigh more than 50 grains.  The case, primer and gunpowder combined weigh more than 10 grains.  How much more depends. A subsonic cartridge is generally filled with less powder than a cartridge that has higher velocity. You will never see makers list the weights of their complete cartridges they only give you the bullet weight, you have to weigh the cartridges yourself and often will find very slight variations. Some diehards will weigh their 22 cartridges in advance so they can group ones of the same precise weight together for use. Even though the difference is 1000th of a gram you will see some oddball people trying to weigh and sort them in groups.

What Mike posted is either talking about weights well before the murders or has a misprint on the bullet weight. The 1984 catalog lists 40 grain for both of their subsonics- they sold a solid subsonic and hollow point. I can't find any records of a 35 grain high velocity round either only 37.5 grains so the document probably is wrong on several fronts or is extremely old.





 

   

Sorry I meant case not jacket.  I was merely saying that the whole bullet may have weighed in a 37 due to the loss of its case, thus meaning that the entire bullet must have weighed in at more than 37. 

Anyhow, I don't know much about bullets and guns as I run a gun shop....