13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[mike tesko]

No in my opinion Jeremy ran out of bullets.  But the scenario I posted regarding the shots is NOT contingent upon who the killer was.  That is why I often say killer instead of bothering to identify the name of a specific person who was the killer when I give the scenario.

The killer entered the master bedroom and shot June at least 4 times while she was lying in bed.  As she was lying down, sitting up or in the process of getting out of the bed she was shot 2 more times (both in the chest).  Nevill was permitted to at least sit up before the killer opened fire on him. Most likely the wounds classified 5 and 6 by the autopsy report were as he was sitting up but still somewhat facing the killer because the shots came for the forward left.  7 and 8 were delivered as he sat on the bed to get up. With him seated on the bed with his left side to the killer, the killer was around the 8 O'clock position and was thus able to fire the shots from his left rear.  The gun was then empty.  The killer likely ran to the kitchen to reload.  With the killer gone June was able to freely walk to the other side of the bed.  Nevill was free to leave the room.  Nevill ran after the killer to try to stop the killer from reloading.  He left a blood drop in the hall and blood on the wall as he bumped into the wall on his way to the kitchen.  June tried to follow Nevill but she was so severely wounded she collapsed before she could make it out the door. 

Otherwise in some mysterious manner Nevill was able to get past the killer to leave the room to go try to arm himself in the kitchen, and June mysteriously was able to walk around the bed through the killer.   This is highly unlikely much more likely is that th ekiller left to reload and Nevill gave chase.

Upon entering the kitchen Nevill found the killer trying to reload the magazine so Nevill grabbed the gun.  The killer then proceded to strugle with him for control of the wepaon.  In the process they bumped into things knockign thm over, the moderator crashed against the lampshade breaking it and then as the gun was lowered to waist level with them fighting the moderator scratched the mantle.  Otherwise the moderator scratched the mantle as the killer was bashing Nevill with the butt of the rifle and thus the motion of bringing the rifle back to the killer resulted in the mantle being hit. 

The killer secured sole control of the weapon and began bashing Nevill with the stock.  He stuck his right arm in front to him to try to block the blows.  he butt of the rifle thus kept crashing into his arm. In the process his watch was ripped off and the various gouges and abrasions were left on his arm. The killer also hit Nevill in the face with his/her fists or with the rifle stock. Eventually the killer was able to bash Nevill's head in with the stock and in the process a piece of the stock broke off and Nevill was rendered unconscious.  During this beating the killer and weapon was splashed with Nevill's blood.  The re was medium velocity impact spatter on the stock of the rifle. The killer would have gotten his/her prints in such blood unless wearing gloves.  Moreover the killer would have suffered an injury to the hand when the stock broke unless wearing gloves.

The killer then reloaded and shot Nevill 4 times in the head killing him.  Rather than go upstairs with only  a partial magazine the killer released the mag and fully loaded it thus there were 11 rounds in the weapon (one in the chamber, 10 in the mag).  The killer then went upstairs and fired a shot between June's eyes to make sure she was dead.  Then the killer went to the boy's room and fired 8 shots total into them killing them.  That left 2 bullets left which were used to kill Sheila and then the gun was empty.

It is also possible Sheila was shot before the boys though that would only have happened if she woke up and was outside of her room when the killer returned upstairs but there is nothing to suggest that this happened. Obviously if Sheila had been the killer then she would have to have died last.  This is the only killer specific issue if she were the killer she had to have died last while the boys could have died last otherwise.

But Sheila wasn't the killer. Sheila was shot while seated against something.  The blood flowed down her shoulder and side of her breast.  After a short while she was dragged flat so that the gun could be placed on top of her body.  this resulted in blood flowing changing to run down the side of her neck to the floor instead of down her shoulder/breast.  The Bible was subsequently placed in this pool of blood.  The moderator was removed and placed in the closet and the gun was left on her chest. Quite obviously the she can't have moved her body and objects after she was dead so she can't have been the killer.

Everything you have spoken about could have been done by Sheila, as opposed to Jeremy...

[scipio_usmc]

Were the similar shots also intended to put June out of action as well?  Or is it that the person that used the rifle was not familiar with it? 

He clearly didn't care about shooting June as she was lying in bed.  He wanted her dead immediately and wanted to kill Nevill while up so he could say Nevill phoned. Her moving around combined with his own nerves resulted in him sending shots all around her. The head shot (above the ear) was probably the first one, after that he had more problems targeting her effectively.  That head shot was fatal but took a while to kill her so he kept firing but he could nto afford to use  all his bullets on her because he still needed to kill Nevill. In all likelihood he fired a couple of shots into June then 2 into Nevill's face then as Nevill turned to get up he fired the one into his shoulder and graze wound. Then he finished emptying the gun on June.  After that he probably ran away to reload and that is when the parents got up fully. June either went around to see Nevill or after Nevill left she went to use the phone but then saw it was missing. It is possible the killer was in the kitchen reloading the magazine (which means the rifle would not have been in the killer's hands because one hand would be holding the magazine while the other hand was inserting the bullets) and that Nevill walked in and grabbed the gun and then that is what started the struggle because the killer needed to take the gun back. The killer probably would have caught up to Nevill before he ever made it to the kitchen if Nevill managed to somehow get past the killer to leave the room.  More likely is that the killer went to the kitchen and Nevill ended up following the killer.  The killer might not have even known Nevill was not immobilized and could have been surprised by Nevill when Nevill entered. These finer details can only be answered by the killer.

 

[mike tesko]

Aside from microscopic traces of human flesh none would get on the rifle during the blows. Blood would and did which further proves the butt of the rifle was being used to bash Nevill not the barrel.  Had the barrel been used blood would have been on the barrel of the weapon instead of on the stock.

The stock still had blood on it when found so obviously the stock wasn't wiped down. Some of the blood did rub off though because the stock was rubbing against the killer's clothing as it was being fired. SO blood definitely was on the killer's clothing through a variety of mechanisms.  Police would have loved to find clothing of hers containing such blood because it would heave helped their theory but there was no such clothing found.

Some of the clothing worn by Sheila in her role as the killer was no doubt used by the police to try and control the spread of Ralph Bombers blood on the kitchen floor. After she killed Ralph she washed herself down as best she could and dried herself on a towel, which the police also used to control the spread of blood around the kitchen floor. Other items with her bloodvon were put into a plastic bucket of cold water, where three days later Ann Eaton found them and retained them...

[mike tesko]

You are making the assumption that Nevill would have left blood on the bed though that is not necessarily the case.  He had clothes on which inhibits blood dripping.  Furthermore the bed wasn't tested so we have no way to know if there were any drips there or not.  The photos we have don't show the underbedding and don't even show the quilt well. A close-up picture would be needed to see static drips, spatter is mostly microscopic so we won't see that regardless in a photo. We don't see the spatter on June's side.  What we do see is blood from where June's wounds were touching the bedding because she was lying down when bleeding and thus bleeding on the bedding. In contrast Nevill's wounds were not to areas where his wounds would be touching the bedding.

If they saved the bedding a blood expert could have inspected the spatter using a SEM and other tools and could have figured out things that we can't.  But they didn't save it so we are stuck with photos of the blood where June was lying down and that's it.

We know Nevill dripped a drop blood in the hall but they didn't find a trail of drops all the way to the kitchen he was not bleeding that much in the sense of it dripping places moreso he got it by his bloody body bumping against things and transferring it.  Trying to talk would have left a mess though becausee his mouth had a lot of blood inside it and if you ever tried talking you would know if drips down your clothes.  When I got my wisdom teeth out my mouth filled with blood for days and I ruined a lot of shirts.  That was despite gauge in my mouth he didn't have that so opening his mouth would have made  a mess for sure.

June walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door and could not longer keep her balance and fell. She probably spun around to grab the bed to try to keep her balance but it was to little avail. She could also have simply spun loosing her balance. My dad fell yesterday and spun around as he did landing on one of my mom's swan planters. He's fat, it broke, she cried. He was facing the planter next thing you know he starts to fall spins around like a ballerina so has his back to the planter and falls on it CRUSH. He simply lost his footing somehow. June could have fallen seated at first and then her back fell to the floor after a bit of time, she didn't have to just tumble over like a domino. We don't have any way to know the exact nature of her tumble. If she had bashed her head in as she fell hat would provide some indication she fell like a domino.

The cliche she fell and could not get back up seems to fit.  She collapsed and then ended up stuck there till the shot between her eyes to make sure she was dead.  It was delivered while she was already on the floor and most likely already dead but the killer needed to be certain. All that matters is she was so severely injured she never made it out of the room.  If she were less injured and had been able to go help Nevill things could have turned out differently.   

With respect to DRH/23:

1) DRH/23 was technically an unfired cartridge.  While people often call unfired cartridges that is not technically correct and is imprecise language that can allow for confusion sometimes.  A bullet is a component of a complete cartridge.

2) I have never seen anything about DRH/23 or any of the other unfired cartridges being weighed.  Had they been weighed they would have weighed over 50 grains because the cartridge is made up of not only the bullet, but the case, but also the propellant and primer. When someone says 40 grain bullet that means the bullet alone weighs 40 grains before it is mated with the case. There would be no purpose served by weighing the entire cartridge and I have seen no evidence to suggest it happened.  If you want the weight of the bullet you have to remove it from the casing to weigh it alone.  You will often find that cartridges vary from one another by a small amount.  There is no way to know if that variation is the bullet, the casing, or the propellant unless you separate the cartridges into their components and weigh the components to see where the variation exists.

Jeremy dumped out the tray but but one of the bullets managed to stay inside. All that tells us is he was probably holding the side where the bullet remained when he dumped it.  That is not really of any use to us though.   

There was none of Ralph's blood in the main bedroom because he wasn't shot inside the bedroom, not once, not twice, not three times, or four times...  How come there was no blood at all on the soles of Ralph's feet?

[susan]

Hello Mike is this your explanation why Sheila was so clean.  If what you have posted is what happened the police must have known that Sheila was the killer and Jeremy was innocent

[scipio_usmc]

Everything you have spoken about could have been done by Sheila, as opposed to Jeremy...

Except that she could not have moved objects and her own body after she was dead.  So she can't have killed herself.

Furthermore, had she been the one who beat Nevill then her body and clothing would have been covered in his blood and also GSR/soot from shooting everyone. The killer worse gloves if she wore them then the bloody gloves she wore would have been found and even if she changed the bloody clothing she wore would have been found. Someone planning to kill herself would have no reason to wash up and change anyway though. 

[scipio_usmc]

There was none of Ralph's blood in the main bedroom because he wasn't shot inside the bedroom, not once, not twice, not three times, or four times...  How come there was no blood at all on the soles of Ralph's feet?

You can't prove his blood wasn't there.  The only blood they tested was 5 drops at June's feet and 5 drops at Sheila's feet. They didn't test all the blood in the room and didn't even document all the blood that was in the room they destroyed the bloody bedding.  The only things they kept were June's pillows because 2 bullets that exited her were found in them.

[susan]

Except that she could not have moved objects and her own body after she was dead.  So she can't have killed herself.

Furthermore, had she been the one who beat Nevill then her body and clothing would have been covered in his blood and also GSR/soot from shooting everyone. The killer worse gloves if she wore them then the bloody gloves she wore would have been found and even if she changed the bloody clothing she wore would have been found. Someone planning to kill herself would have no reason to wash up and change anyway though.

Scipio I agree if Sheila had carried out the murders why would she wish to destroy all the evidence from her clothes does not make sense and she would not have wore gloves

[mike tesko]

Scipio I agree if Sheila had carried out the murders why would she wish to destroy all the evidence from her clothes does not make sense and she would not have wore gloves

There is no evidence that anyone wore gloves...

[maggie]

Hello Maggie

as I said earlier very difficult to plan a murder down to fine details with a case like this.  It is my opinion that the killer intended to kill Ralph as soon as possible why did he have to allow him to be downstairs he could have put the phone back in the bedroom and taken it off the cradle and pretended Ralph phoned him from there.  I have a feeling Scipio is going to tell me why my suggestion is not feasible

Think you may be right about scip suse  but it seems a valid point to me. I struggle to believe the killer would have put such stress on himself in his plans. IMO he needed Nevill dead ASAP , I shall even concede he wanted Nevill dead by a phone but if as guilters insist the phone was moved from the bedroom surely it would make more sense to keep the bedroom phone in the bedroom and if possible kill Nevill in the bedroom ASAP before killing the others? Xxx

[mike tesko]

He clearly didn't care about shooting June as she was lying in bed.  He wanted her dead immediately and wanted to kill Nevill while up so he could say Nevill phoned. Her moving around combined with his own nerves resulted in him sending shots all around her. The head shot (above the ear) was probably the first one, after that he had more problems targeting her effectively.  That head shot was fatal but took a while to kill her so he kept firing but he could nto afford to use  all his bullets on her because he still needed to kill Nevill. In all likelihood he fired a couple of shots into June then 2 into Nevill's face then as Nevill turned to get up he fired the one into his shoulder and graze wound. Then he finished emptying the gun on June.  After that he probably ran away to reload and that is when the parents got up fully. June either went around to see Nevill or after Nevill left she went to use the phone but then saw it was missing. It is possible the killer was in the kitchen reloading the magazine (which means the rifle would not have been in the killer's hands because one hand would be holding the magazine while the other hand was inserting the bullets) and that Nevill walked in and grabbed the gun and then that is what started the struggle because the killer needed to take the gun back. The killer probably would have caught up to Nevill before he ever made it to the kitchen if Nevill managed to somehow get past the killer to leave the room.  More likely is that the killer went to the kitchen and Nevill ended up following the killer.  The killer might not have even known Nevill was not immobilized and could have been surprised by Nevill when Nevill entered. These finer details can only be answered by the killer.

 

Suddenly, your term 'killer' , turns into 'he', when it should in all honesty be turned into a 'she'...

[susan]

Think you may be right about scip suse  but it seems a valid point to me. I struggle to believe the killer would have put such stress on himself in his plans. IMO he needed Nevill dead ASAP , I shall even concede he wanted Nevill dead by a phone but if as guilters insist the phone was moved from the bedroom surely it would make more sense to keep the bedroom phone in the bedroom and if possible kill Nevill in the bedroom ASAP before killing the others? Xxx

Maggie the killer could not risk leaving the phone in the bedroom Ralph may have got to use it I can see Scipio's point about not wanting to kill Ralph asleep or still lying in his bed he could not have made the phone call then I am not even sure Ralph running downstairs was in the plan at all it was just how things turned out we are all speculating as none of us were there.

[mike tesko]

You are ignoring th ebullet that grazed Nevill was found int he master bedroom.

In the meantime you have zero evidence any casings were moved to the master bedroom and there is no motive for police to do so.

In my presentation Ralph was never in the bedroom to be grazed by any shot, as you put it. Ralph was undoubtedly shot at least once somewhere near the top of the main stairs, perhaps twice, (wounds 8 and 7). In my opinion he was never inside the main bedroom at all. He made it to the kitchen, managed to make his distress call to Jeremy, followed by his distress call to the police, informing them that his daughter has got one of his guns, and is going berserk. It seems obvious to me that once Sheila shot Ralph on the stairs (wound 7), that the bolt action load mechanism jammed forcing Sheila to return to her bedroom to collect the preloaded anshuzt  rifle filled with 10 cartridges, with another 5 live rounds on standby on top of her coded handwritten note on her bedside cabinet. Once in possession of the loaded anshuzt rifle she set off down stairs to finish off Ralph. In the meantime, Ralph had made his calls to Jeremy and the police (3.26am), and was either still in the process of talking to police, or had just finished, when Sheila turned up in the main kitchen with the fully loaded anshuzt rifle. As she entered the kitchen, Ralph half turned his body and his head, and at that precise moment Sheila fired two .22 subsonic bullets into his mouth region...

[mike tesko]

You can't prove his blood wasn't there.  The only blood they tested was 5 drops at June's feet and 5 drops at Sheila's feet. They didn't test all the blood in the room and didn't even document all the blood that was in the room they destroyed the bloody bedding.  The only things they kept were June's pillows because 2 bullets that exited her were found in them.

There was none of Ralph's blood at all in the main bedroom, that's all I need to know...

[scipio_usmc]

There is no evidence that anyone wore gloves...

If the killer didn't wear gloves then the killer's prints would have been in the blood that was on the rifle and that means blood would have been on the killer's hands to leave bloody prints on other objects the killer touched.  Moreover, when the stock broke the killer's hand would at minimum have been scratched and more likely cut. Sheila's hands had no scratches let alone cuts and there is no proof Jeremy's hands had any wounds either.