Author Topic: 13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...  (Read 51613 times)

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Offline susan

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He says the weight is 40 grams. I think there were tow types of bullets used. Not sure if they were the same weight in 1985, I guess they may have been.  Off to polish me ball.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Patti nuts to you too hahaha

Offline lookout

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I'm still curious why JB, who supposedly planned the murders for a year didn't make any attempt to put Nevill out of action, would have thought that would have been his first thought.  Why no shots to lower legs, it's very brutal but kneecapping is a sure way of incapacitating a person rather than pot shots at the head. Nevill's height was his best asset against JB so am surprised no attempt to bring him down. There were no missed shots to the lower body, so no attempt at all
Was made....... just thinking out loud really.  :-\







You're right Maggie. Jeremy would never have attempted a face to face confrontation with his father without first putting him out of action.
These murders were deliberate and frenzied,to have used so many bullets.

Offline susan

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Hello gals

if you imagine Ralph being asleep sitting up in bed suddenly being awaken it was not possible to aim at his legs the killer would have been more interested in the head to kill him on the spot things seem to go  off course don't think you can forward plan a murder such as this not sure if Ralph ran downstairs to arm himself.  If Ralph was stood upright facing his killer he would have killed him on the spot with a head wound or to the heart.  Just thoughts that go round in my head could be way off course how will we ever know.

Offline lookout

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My own thoughts are that Neville didn't even get the chance to go to bed that night. June wouldn't have been asleep,as RWB said in one of his statements that she was a very poor sleeper who used to read the Bible in order to help her relax. June would have heard a pin drop ! So for sure she'd have been aware of Sheila wandering about,probably getting herself a snack. I believe the taking of cannabis creates a phenomenom called " the munchies ". :-X------------usually during the night/morning.

Offline mike tesko

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It is you in a hole not me.  The police found no evidence of AP's rifle nor did the family when they collected the weapons.  AP says he took the weapon home with him after his last visit and the evidence supports his claim because no one found it there.

The police did find AP's bolt action rifle at the scene, they checked it to see if it had been damaged during the incident.  AP himself made a witness statement to Essex police stating that hw always kept his .22 bolt action rifle at whf, but that it was his usual practice to remove the bolt from it and to take that home with him so that no-one could fire it in his absence. Jeremt listed it as beinf present at the scene at the materiall time..

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Just read on gun club forum that when the above bullets came out they weighed 38grms.  :-\

First of all if they wrote 38 grams they messed up and meant grains because a 38 grain bullet would be a huge projectile. 

Second, they probably mean when the 22LR Hollow Point was first invented over a hundred years ago that it was 38 grains.  If they are claiming Eley 22LR Subsonic Hollow Point were 38 grain they are wrong it has always been 40 grain- at least with modern gunpowder there is little information on their old blackpowder rounds.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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The police did find AP's bolt action rifle at the scene, they checked it to see if it had been damaged during the incident.  AP himself made a witness statement to Essex police stating that hw always kept his .22 bolt action rifle at whf, but that it was his usual practice to remove the bolt from it and to take that home with him so that no-one could fire it in his absence. Jeremt listed it as beinf present at the scene at the materiall time..

AP said that he had taken the gun home with him after his last visit.  Post evidence police inspected a bolt action rifle at WHF, the claim is false. Zero police mention anything about a bolt action rifle and the Eatons were specifically asked if one of the weapons they found was AP's bolt action rifle and they answered no. If it had been there not only would the family have seen it they would have taken it along with all the other guns to be stored at the Eaton's. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Morning Patti

read yours and Scipio's posts with interest.  I wonder why June was trying to get to Ralph's side of the bed wonder if Sheila was lying there with the one bullet to a neck.  It is so difficult to figure all this out as we are all just applying our own views to a certain extent :(

First of all, how could he stage Sheila in the room and shoot her with both parents looking on from bed?  While he had the gun on Sheila they would have gotten up and attacked him from behind.  That would have reduced the shots he had available to use on the parents to 8 though we know he used a full magazine on them. 

Some of the blood June dripped was under Sheila's body that means the blood was there before Sheila was.

June most likely walked around the bed after the killer left the room.  Whether she went to try to go to Nevill or to the phone that was normally on Nevill's nightstand, or just moving around like a chicken without a head there is no way to know but it wasn't to go see Sheila's body.   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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I'm still curious why JB, who supposedly planned the murders for a year didn't make any attempt to put Nevill out of action, would have thought that would have been his first thought.  Why no shots to lower legs, it's very brutal but kneecapping is a sure way of incapacitating a person rather than pot shots at the head. Nevill's height was his best asset against JB so am surprised no attempt to bring him down. There were no missed shots to the lower body, so no attempt at all
Was made....... just thinking out loud really.  :-\

What do you think the 4 shots at him in the bedroom were intended for?  They were intended to put him out of action.  His plan was to say that Nevill phoned him.  He thus could not kill Nevill in his sleep. He needed Nevill to die while being awake.  So he waited till Nevill was at least seated if not in the process of getting up before opening fire on Nevill.  He thus fired several shots at June permitting Nevill to start to get up before turning the gun on Nevill.  After they began moving he had a harder time hitting them in key locations. He didn't practice hitting moving targets, it is not as easy as people think. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline susan

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First of all, how could he stage Sheila in the room and shoot her with both parents looking on from bed?  While he had the gun on Sheila they would have gotten up and attacked him from behind.  That would have reduced the shots he had available to use on the parents to 8 though we know he used a full magazine on them. 

Some of the blood June dripped was under Sheila's body that means the blood was there before Sheila was.

June most likely walked around the bed after the killer left the room.  Whether she went to try to go to Nevill or to the phone that was normally on Nevill's nightstand, or just moving around like a chicken without a head there is no way to know but it wasn't to go see Sheila's body.

Scipio hello  you do make me see just how stupid my posts are and I thank you for that ;D I am learning daily I could have done with you on here three years ago when I joined or was it 4  :'(  You are very patient with me ;D

Offline Patti

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What do you think the 4 shots at him in the bedroom were intended for?  They were intended to put him out of action.  His plan was to say that Nevill phoned him.  He thus could not kill Nevill in his sleep. He needed Nevill to die while being awake.  So he waited till Nevill was at least seated if not in the process of getting up before opening fire on Nevill.  He thus fired several shots at June permitting Nevill to start to get up before turning the gun on Nevill.  After they began moving he had a harder time hitting them in key locations. He didn't practice hitting moving targets, it is not as easy as people think.

Were the similar shots also intended to put June out of action as well?  :-\ Or is it that the person that used the rifle was not familiar with it?  ;D

Offline maggie

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What do you think the 4 shots at him in the bedroom were intended for?  They were intended to put him out of action.  His plan was to say that Nevill phoned him.  He thus could not kill Nevill in his sleep. He needed Nevill to die while being awake.  So he waited till Nevill was at least seated if not in the process of getting up before opening fire on Nevill.  He thus fired several shots at June permitting Nevill to start to get up before turning the gun on Nevill.  After they began moving he had a harder time hitting them in key locations. He didn't practice hitting moving targets, it is not as easy as people think.
I know you've said all that before but that is your assumption, you need him to have behaved in this way otherwise your scenario falls down. How do you know he hadn't practiced hitting moving targets? He apparently planned it for a year and prepared strangling rats which is ludicrous but never thought to paractice hitting moving targets or thinking out any kind of strategy for quickly getting control of Nevill who was the most dangerous and biggest threat to carrying out his extremely risky plan.
It would be easier for me to accept JB lost his temper that night and shot them in anger before leaving the house to go home. I know it's highly unlikely but struggle with the theory and statement of Julie Mugford that he planned it and carried it out with such little care for his own safety. Everything about it suggests spur of the moment to me just doesn't make sense in some way, otherwise..

Offline susan

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I know you've said all that before but that is your assumption, you need him to have behaved in this way otherwise your scenario falls down. How do you know he hadn't practiced hitting moving targets? He apparently planned it for a year and prepared strangling rats which is ludicrous but never thought to paractice hitting moving targets or thinking out any kind of strategy for quickly getting control of Nevill who was the most dangerous and biggest threat to carrying out his extremely risky plan.
It would be easier for me to accept JB lost his temper that night and shot them in anger before leaving the house to go home. I know it's highly unlikely but struggle with the theory and statement of Julie Mugford that he planned it and carried it out with such little care for his own safety. Everything about it suggests spur of the moment to me just doesn't make sense in some way, otherwise..

Hello Maggie

as I said earlier very difficult to plan a murder down to fine details with a case like this.  It is my opinion that the killer intended to kill Ralph as soon as possible why did he have to allow him to be downstairs he could have put the phone back in the bedroom and taken it off the cradle and pretended Ralph phoned him from there.  I have a feeling Scipio is going to tell me why my suggestion is not feasible :'(

Offline susan

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Were the similar shots also intended to put June out of action as well?  :-\ Or is it that the person that used the rifle was not familiar with it?  ;D

Patti I guess shooting June would have awoken Ralph so he need not have died in his sleep was not important if June died in her sleep or not he wanted Ralph on his feet so he could have made the phone call whether from the bedroom or the kitchen.

Offline scipio_usmc

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A) So did June, but we can see evident transfers of blood.

B) Could we say  the same with Sheila's nightdress then?

C) So June was shot and Nevill did not reach over to June to offer protection or love her, he simply got a shoulder shot and left the bed. Fig. 5 and 6 also show a slightly downward shot, thus meaning the killer was higher than Nevill.  Any wounds to head or mouth and it will bleed profusely, surely?

D) They saved the pillow slips, not 100% sure they did not save the sheet. 

E) Hammersley took a scraping of blood some 15/18 inches from the outside of Sheila's bedroom, but we do not know the results of that blood sample, I suspect it to belong to Nevill.

F) I don't buy that Scip, she was clearly not on her way out, she was facing her killer at the bottom of the bed and already using the bottom of the bed to keep her balance, she then fell back after another shot into the door, transfered blood onto the door and slipped further into the position she was found.


A) June was lying down in bed while she was bleeding.  She had 4-6 entrance wounds while in bed and 3 exit wounds and was bleeding directly against the bedding.

Nevill had a shot to his lip, shot to his jaw and shot to his shoulder. The 4th shot was a graze wound so not one likely to spill blood. He was not lying against the bed when shot and none of these were in a location that would come in contact with the bed after he was shot.  It would take a while before blood would drip down his face and fall off his face onto the floor and if seated it would fall in his lap.  There could have been high velocity impact back spatter on bedding but since it is fine very little would show up in photos and you need a very good closeup to see any of it. You would even need a good closeup to see a static drop.  The only blood seen in the photos of June's side is where bloody wounds came into direct contact with the bedding. By the time June stood up she had 6 entrance wounds and 3 exit wounds so 9 different wounds to bleed from. The blood went down her gown and also on the floor. Nevill's clothing didn't exhibit such his 3 wounds resulted in a lot of blood being internal. he did drop a little in the hall though and when his bloody arm actually came into contact with the wall it left blood at that point.

B) Because of the nature and location of her wounds, had she stood up then blood would have dripped down her gown like happened to June. That would be evident in the photos.  Medium velocity impact spatter from beating Nevill would also be seen.  The photos are not good enough for us to be able to see high velocity backspatter though. We are stuck exclusively with the examination done by the lab with respect to such issue the photo is of no value in evaluating such.  The lab of course said there was no backspatter (medium or high velocity) from any victims just her own blood was on her gown. 

C) Shortly after being shot his mouth and throat were full of blood. If Nevill tried talking then blood would be leaking out of his mouth. If he kept his mouth closed the blood would mostly stay inside.   He must not have been opening his mouth too much because blood wasn't all over his chest to the extent one would expect had he been trying to talk.  My guess is that when his face was beaten blood was getting on his attacker. It only takes seconds to get out of bed so he was up before his mouth was full though. His idea of defense was to get out of bed and try to get the attacker. By the time he rose the gun was empty and that made it easier to charge the killer.  The killer likely fled the room upon the gun being empty.  There is no damage indicating a struggle took place in the bedroom.  The killer likely fled to the kitchen to reload and Nevill decided to try to prevent that.     

D) They saved the pillows because the bullets were embedded in them.  They burned the sheets etc so there was never any lab examination to see if there was spatter or other blood on it.  They just have the photos of the blood stains made by June's bloody wounds coming into direct contact with the bed. This is one of the things that shows they had little intention of examining things more thoroughly and were content with blaming Sheila.  To destroy the bedding so quick means that even though their theory was just supposed to be a theory and they were supposed to be entertaining all options they didn't really entertain all options and pretty much already decided to take a particular course and close off investigating others.
 
E) There was a drop of blood right outside the master bedroom door (DRH/47) This obviously was either dripped there by Nevill or leaked off the killer.  Nevill is the only victim who managed to leave the room he had initially been shot in so he is the only possible contributor aside from the killer getting splashed with some victim blood and then it dripping off.  High Velocity backspatter though usually won't deposit so much blood that it would then drip off the killer leaving a static drop. The killer woudl have had a lot of blood after the kitchen fight and could have dripped Nevill's blood after going back upstairs though.  It could have been dripped near the master bedroom and then Sheila's room as the killer was going to get Sheila.  So it could have been dripped by Nevill or the killer there is no way to know for sure.     

F) The shot delivered between her eyes was delivered while she was on the floor and this is the shot that sent spatter to the door

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry