13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[susan]

Hi Scip can I address the point I highlighted in red please.  June was not heading for the door at all she was on her way round to the other side of the bed.  This is apparent as she fell backward into the open door of the main bedroom.  If you look at the full image of that crime scene photo and imagine you lifted June to her standing position she was certainly not going out of the room.

The other point you make about Nevill sat on the bed, there is no evidence of that for there is no blood in that area of the bed....unless there is blood that does not show up on the photo. ?

The other point about the weights of the bullets used is that I am interested in the DRH/23 the whole bullet that was found in the plastic tray in the kitchen on its lonesome.  The largest weight I have seen of all the whole bullets is 37.54. I was trying to find out if Fletcher has fully examined that bullet and it appears there is no mention of it...

Morning Patti

read yours and Scipio's posts with interest.  I wonder why June was trying to get to Ralph's side of the bed wonder if Sheila was lying there with the one bullet to a neck.  It is so difficult to figure all this out as we are all just applying our own views to a certain extent

[Zoso]

By the way here are Radcliffe's statements where he says Nevill bought 500 rounds of Eley Subsonic Hollow Point 22LR ammunition:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1721.msg54988.html#msg54988

It needs to be added to the archive.

Archived.

[Patti]

You are making the assumption that Nevill would have left blood on the bed though that is not necessarily the case.  He had clothes on which inhibits blood dripping. So did June, but we can see evident transfers of blood. Furthermore the bed wasn't tested so we have no way to know if there were any drips there or not.  The photos we have don't show the underbedding and don't even show the quilt well. A close-up picture would be needed to see static drips, spatter is mostly microscopic so we won't see that regardless in a photo. Could we say  the same with Sheila's nightdress then? We don't see the spatter on June's side.  What we do see is blood from where June's wounds were touching the bedding because she was lying down when bleeding and thus bleeding on the bedding. In contrast Nevill's wounds were not to areas where his wounds would be touching the bedding.   So June was shot and Nevill did not reach over to June to offer protection or love her, he simply got a shoulder shot and left the bed. Fig. 5 and 6 also show a slightly downward shot, thus meaning the killer was higher than Nevill.  Any wounds to head or mouth and it will bleed profusely, surely?

If they saved the bedding a blood expert could have inspected the spatter using a SEM and other tools and could have figured out things that we can't.  But they didn't save it so we are stuck with photos of the blood where June was lying down and that's it. They saved the pillow slips, not 100% sure they did not save the sheet.

We know Nevill dripped a drop blood in the hall but they didn't find a trail of drops all the way to the kitchen he was not bleeding that much in the sense of it dripping places moreso he got it by his bloody body bumping against things and transferring it.  Trying to talk would have left a mess though becausee his mouth had a lot of blood inside it and if you ever tried talking you would know if drips down your clothes.  When I got my wisdom teeth out my mouth filled with blood for days and I ruined a lot of shirts.  That was despite gauge in my mouth he didn't have that so opening his mouth would have made  a mess for sure. Hammersley took a scraping of blood some 15/18 inches from the outside of Sheila's bedroom, but we do not know the results of that blood sample, I suspect it to belong to Nevill.

June walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door and could not longer keep her balance and fell. She probably spun around to grab the bed to try to keep her balance but it was to little avail. I don't buy that Scip, she was clearly not on her way out, she was facing her killer at the bottom of the bed and already using the bottom of the bed to keep her balance, she then fell back after another shot into the door, transfered blood onto the door and slipped further into the position she was found. She could also have simply spun loosing her balance. My dad fell yesterday and spun around as he did landing on one of my mom's swan planters. He's fat, it broke, she cried. He was facing the planter next thing you know he starts to fall spins around like a ballerina so has his back to the planter and falls on it CRUSH. He simply lost his footing somehow. June could have fallen seated at first and then her back fell to the floor after a bit of time, she didn't have to just tumble over like a domino. We don't have any way to know the exact nature of her tumble. If she had bashed her head in as she fell hat would provide some indication she fell like a domino.

The cliche she fell and could not get back up seems to fit.  She collapsed and then ended up stuck there till the shot between her eyes to make sure she was dead.  It was delivered while she was already on the floor and most likely already dead but the killer needed to be certain. All that matters is she was so severely injured she never made it out of the room.  If she were less injured and had been able to go help Nevill things could have turned out differently.   

With respect to DRH/23:

1) DRH/23 was technically an unfired cartridge.  While people often call unfired cartridges that is not technically correct and is imprecise language that can allow for confusion sometimes.  A bullet is a component of a complete cartridge.

2) I have never seen anything about DRH/23 or any of the other unfired cartridges being weighed.  Had they been weighed they would have weighed over 50 grains because the cartridge is made up of not only the bullet, but the case, but also the propellant and primer. When someone says 40 grain bullet that means the bullet alone weighs 40 grains before it is mated with the case. There would be no purpose served by weighing the entire cartridge and I have seen no evidence to suggest it happened.  If you want the weight of the bullet you have to remove it from the casing to weigh it alone.  You will often find that cartridges vary from one another by a small amount.  There is no way to know if that variation is the bullet, the casing, or the propellant unless you separate the cartridges into their components and weigh the components to see where the variation exists.

Jeremy dumped out the tray but but one of the bullets managed to stay inside. All that tells us is he was probably holding the side where the bullet remained when he dumped it.  That is not really of any use to us though.   

The bullet in the tray was near the kitchen sink we do not have that photo in the archives, but I have seen it. Hartley posted it for me.  I was looking for info re DRH/23 to see if they had weighed it. I do remember a document with the weight of the bullets and it was not 40 grams I am sure, but I stand to be corrected...I was always under the impression the weight was 39 point something. 

[Patti]

Morning Patti

read yours and Scipio's posts with interest.  I wonder why June was trying to get to Ralph's side of the bed wonder if Sheila was lying there with the one bullet to a neck.  It is so difficult to figure all this out as we are all just applying our own views to a certain extent

Morning Susan

 I think that is a fair comment. I do think she was facing her killer at the time. Nevill could have entered the bedroom and bent down to June and he could have been shot in his left shoulder then?  Who knows....eh? Many scenarios, but I bet one of them is right.....but which one. 

[susan]

Morning Susan

 I think that is a fair comment. I do think she was facing her killer at the time. Nevill could have entered the bedroom and bent down to June and he could have been shot in his left shoulder then?  Who knows....eh? Many scenarios, but I bet one of them is right.....but which one. 

Patti I have noted your comments but I am wondering if you have an theory on the following (gawd sounding like Adam new threads next )

l. why was June going to Ralph's side of the bed.

2 If Ralph was bending down to June do you think the killer was still in the room.

3 When June was shot do you think Ralph was still in the room.

4.  Could June have been going to Sheila on Ralph's side with the one shot to her neck

[Patti]

Patti I have noted your comments but I am wondering if you have an theory on the following (gawd sounding like Adam new threads next )

l. why was June going to Ralph's side of the bed.

2 If Ralph was bending down to June do you think the killer was still in the room.

3 When June was shot do you think Ralph was still in the room.

4.  Could June have been going to Sheila on Ralph's side with the one shot to her neck

Hahahaha I will get me crystal ball out and give it a good shake.  I can't give you an honest answer, but can give you an opinion...

[Patti]

Just found this:

ELEY subsonic hollow
ELEY subsonic hollow






download product guide
overview

ELEY subsonic hollow is a hunting cartridge with target shooting accuracy and reduced velocity, offering a quieter muzzle report compared to other .22LR hunting rounds.

With its innovative hollow nosed profile, the ELEY subsonic hollow projectile delivers unequalled expansion characteristics, resulting in short penetration with outstanding stopping power; essential features for vermin control .The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions.

Increasingly popular with game keepers and land owners, ELEY subsonic hollow is regarded as one of the quietest and most accurate subsonic rounds on the market.

key features

Quiet and accurate
Non-greasy all weather lubricant
Market-leading expansion characteristics
Excellent stopping power
designed for

Varmint shooters
used for

Hunting
firearm

.22LR Rifle
.22LR Lightweight Sport Rifle (LSR)

technical information

specifications

bullet profile

Hollow point

cartridge length

25.4mm / 1inch

bullet weight

2.59grams / 40grains

velocity

Muzzle : 317m/s (1040ft/s)

20m (22yds) : 303m/s (984ft/s)

50m (55yds) : 285m/s (922ft/s)

energy

Muzzle = 13.3 (Kg.m) / 96.0 (ft.lb)

20m / 22yds = 11.9 (Kg.m) / 86 (ft.lb)

50m / 55yds = 10.4 (Kg.m) / 75 (ft.lb)

[Patti]

Just read on gun club forum that when the above bullets came out they weighed 38grms. 

[susan]

Hahahaha I will get me crystal ball out and give it a good shake.  I can't give you an honest answer, but can give you an opinion...

Hahaha Patti forget the crystal ball your opinion is good enough when you have time

[susan]

Just read on gun club forum that when the above bullets came out they weighed 38grms. 

Patti  I knew that of course did not want to show off

[Patti]

Patti  I knew that of course did not want to show off

Not sure they are right though Susan, its off a forum....

[susan]

Not sure they are right though Susan, its off a forum....

Patti will be guess work then kidding what does Scipio think.

[Patti]

Patti will be guess work then kidding what does Scipio think.

He says the weight is 40 grams. I think there were tow types of bullets used. Not sure if they were the same weight in 1985, I guess they may have been.  Off to polish me ball....

[mike tesko]

By the way here are Radcliffe's statements where he says Nevill bought 500 rounds of Eley Subsonic Hollow Point 22LR ammunition:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1721.msg54988.html#msg54988

It needs to be added to the archive.

The contents of this witness statement dated the 30th September 1985, where it describes the type of .22 ammunition sold to Ralph Bamber on the 30th November 1984, does not match the description recorded in the firearms register, which simply states, .22 subsonic. Furthermore, the contents of this statement is unsigned, and clearly made after the case had already been made into a one gun crime...

[maggie]

Patti I have noted your comments but I am wondering if you have an theory on the following (gawd sounding like Adam new threads next )

l. why was June going to Ralph's side of the bed.

2 If Ralph was bending down to June do you think the killer was still in the room.

3 When June was shot do you think Ralph was still in the room.

4.  Could June have been going to Sheila on Ralph's side with the one shot to her neck

I'm still curious why JB, who supposedly planned the murders for a year didn't make any attempt to put Nevill out of action, would have thought that would have been his first thought.  Why no shots to lower legs, it's very brutal but kneecapping is a sure way of incapacitating a person rather than pot shots at the head. Nevill's height was his best asset against JB so am surprised no attempt to bring him down. There were no missed shots to the lower body, so no attempt at all
Was made....... just thinking out loud really.