13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[mike tesko]

I don't buy into the idea that Sheila managed to shoot Ralph no less than 4 times, or 3 times non fatally whilst he was present in the main bedroom. There is no way he could have had a mouth full of bullets, and blood, and manage not to spill or spit out any expiated blood anywhere inside the bedroom, or anywhere along the route he must then have taken to end up downstairs in the kitchen - if you have bullets embedded in your mouth and a mouth filling up with blood, you would not keep it all in your mouth or swallow it, since you could end up drowning in your own blood. No, the shots to the mouth were definitely not inflicted whilst Ralph was upstairs in the bedroom. He was shot in the mouth region after he arrived at the kitchen...

Nothing could be any clearer...

[mike tesko]

There was no Bolt Action rifle at the scene. The injuries were made by the butt of the Anschutz.  It doesn't matter if you want to allege Mary Poppins did it- the wounds were made by the butt of the Anschutz regardless of who the killer was.

 

No human flesh or tissue was found on the butt of the rifle, do you think Sheila wiped the gun clean after striking Ralph with it in the manner you mention?

[mike tesko]

The .22 bolt action rifle was there at the scene, and you'd better believe it...

That hole you'll be tumbling into is getting ever bigger by the minute...

[mike tesko]

The sequence of events involved use of the .22 bolt action rifle and 8 or 9 .22 LR Bullets (not purchased, and not belonging to Ralph Bamber), and the shooter targeting June in the main bedroom, directing as many as 5 shots at her. Shooter enters the twins room, and shoots both dead with a single shot apiece, then the shooter and Ralph meet head to head in the region of the top landing and the middle landing of the main stairs, where Sheila fires two rounds at him - at this stage I believe that either the bolt action rifle ran out of bullets, or it jammed, enabling Ralph to scurry off towards the kitchen with a view to alerting Jeremy and the police. There was obviously some delay between Ralph being shot at, and Ralph making his two distress calls, one to Jeremy, the other to the police (3.26am). Ralph has got his bloodied left hand fingers gripping the edge of the kitchen worktop, whilst holding the telephone handset in his uninjured right hand, enabling him to make a very abrupt call to Jeremy, without managing to say much at all during that call, then he had depressed the cradle of the phone and then made his more detailed call to the police (3.26am). This coincided with Jeremy trying to re-establish contact with his father only to be greeted by an engaged tone, this was because at that stage Ralph was on the phone to the police informing them that his daughter has got one of his guns...

Step forward Sheila, wielding the rifle striking Ralph with it because she had no more bullets in it to fire, or the rifles firing mechanism had become jammed, so she bludgeoned Ralph with the wooden stock of the rifle, into near or close unconsciousness...

[scipio_usmc]

So, in your opinion, Sheila ran out of bullets, who did she shoot, and how many times did she shoot her victims before she ran out of bullets, in order to end up downstairs in the kitchen, struggling with Ralph in the manner you describe?

No in my opinion Jeremy ran out of bullets.  But the scenario I posted regarding the shots is NOT contingent upon who the killer was.  That is why I often say killer instead of bothering to identify the name of a specific person who was the killer when I give the scenario.

The killer entered the master bedroom and shot June at least 4 times while she was lying in bed.  As she was lying down, sitting up or in the process of getting out of the bed she was shot 2 more times (both in the chest).  Nevill was permitted to at least sit up before the killer opened fire on him. Most likely the wounds classified 5 and 6 by the autopsy report were as he was sitting up but still somewhat facing the killer because the shots came for the forward left.  7 and 8 were delivered as he sat on the bed to get up. With him seated on the bed with his left side to the killer, the killer was around the 8 O'clock position and was thus able to fire the shots from his left rear.  The gun was then empty.  The killer likely ran to the kitchen to reload.  With the killer gone June was able to freely walk to the other side of the bed.  Nevill was free to leave the room.  Nevill ran after the killer to try to stop the killer from reloading.  He left a blood drop in the hall and blood on the wall as he bumped into the wall on his way to the kitchen.  June tried to follow Nevill but she was so severely wounded she collapsed before she could make it out the door. 

Otherwise in some mysterious manner Nevill was able to get past the killer to leave the room to go try to arm himself in the kitchen, and June mysteriously was able to walk around the bed through the killer.   This is highly unlikely much more likely is that th ekiller left to reload and Nevill gave chase.

Upon entering the kitchen Nevill found the killer trying to reload the magazine so Nevill grabbed the gun.  The killer then proceded to strugle with him for control of the wepaon.  In the process they bumped into things knockign thm over, the moderator crashed against the lampshade breaking it and then as the gun was lowered to waist level with them fighting the moderator scratched the mantle.  Otherwise the moderator scratched the mantle as the killer was bashing Nevill with the butt of the rifle and thus the motion of bringing the rifle back to the killer resulted in the mantle being hit. 

The killer secured sole control of the weapon and began bashing Nevill with the stock.  He stuck his right arm in front to him to try to block the blows.  he butt of the rifle thus kept crashing into his arm. In the process his watch was ripped off and the various gouges and abrasions were left on his arm. The killer also hit Nevill in the face with his/her fists or with the rifle stock. Eventually the killer was able to bash Nevill's head in with the stock and in the process a piece of the stock broke off and Nevill was rendered unconscious.  During this beating the killer and weapon was splashed with Nevill's blood.  The re was medium velocity impact spatter on the stock of the rifle. The killer would have gotten his/her prints in such blood unless wearing gloves.  Moreover the killer would have suffered an injury to the hand when the stock broke unless wearing gloves.

The killer then reloaded and shot Nevill 4 times in the head killing him.  Rather than go upstairs with only  a partial magazine the killer released the mag and fully loaded it thus there were 11 rounds in the weapon (one in the chamber, 10 in the mag).  The killer then went upstairs and fired a shot between June's eyes to make sure she was dead.  Then the killer went to the boy's room and fired 8 shots total into them killing them.  That left 2 bullets left which were used to kill Sheila and then the gun was empty.

It is also possible Sheila was shot before the boys though that would only have happened if she woke up and was outside of her room when the killer returned upstairs but there is nothing to suggest that this happened. Obviously if Sheila had been the killer then she would have to have died last.  This is the only killer specific issue if she were the killer she had to have died last while the boys could have died last otherwise.

But Sheila wasn't the killer. Sheila was shot while seated against something.  The blood flowed down her shoulder and side of her breast.  After a short while she was dragged flat so that the gun could be placed on top of her body.  this resulted in blood flowing changing to run down the side of her neck to the floor instead of down her shoulder/breast.  The Bible was subsequently placed in this pool of blood.  The moderator was removed and placed in the closet and the gun was left on her chest. Quite obviously the she can't have moved her body and objects after she was dead so she can't have been the killer.



 



     

[scipio_usmc]

The .22 bolt action rifle was there at the scene, and you'd better believe it...

That hole you'll be tumbling into is getting ever bigger by the minute...

It is you in a hole not me.  The police found no evidence of AP's rifle nor did the family when they collected the weapons.  AP says he took the weapon home with him after his last visit and the evidence supports his claim because no one found it there.

[scipio_usmc]

No human flesh or tissue was found on the butt of the rifle, do you think Sheila wiped the gun clean after striking Ralph with it in the manner you mention?

Aside from microscopic traces of human flesh none would get on the rifle during the blows. Blood would and did which further proves the butt of the rifle was being used to bash Nevill not the barrel.  Had the barrel been used blood would have been on the barrel of the weapon instead of on the stock.

The stock still had blood on it when found so obviously the stock wasn't wiped down. Some of the blood did rub off though because the stock was rubbing against the killer's clothing as it was being fired. SO blood definitely was on the killer's clothing through a variety of mechanisms.  Police would have loved to find clothing of hers containing such blood because it would heave helped their theory but there was no such clothing found. 

[Patti]

No in my opinion Jeremy ran out of bullets.  But the scenario I posted regarding the shots is NOT contingent upon who the killer was.  That is why I often say killer instead of bothering to identify the name of a specific person who was the killer when I give the scenario.

The killer entered the master bedroom and shot June at least 4 times while she was lying in bed.  As she was lying down, sitting up or in the process of getting out of the bed she was shot 2 more times (both in the chest).  Nevill was permitted to at least sit up before the killer opened fire on him. Most likely the wounds classified 5 and 6 by the autopsy report were as he was sitting up but still somewhat facing the killer because the shots came for the forward left.  7 and 8 were delivered as he sat on the bed to get up. With him seated on the bed with his left side to the killer, the killer was around the 8 O'clock position and was thus able to fire the shots from his left rear.  The gun was then empty.  The killer likely ran to the kitchen to reload.  With the killer gone June was able to freely walk to the other side of the bed.  Nevill was free to leave the room.  Nevill ran after the killer to try to stop the killer from reloading.  He left a blood drop in the hall and blood on the wall as he bumped into the wall on his way to the kitchen.  June tried to follow Nevill but she was so severely wounded she collapsed before she could make it out the door. 

Otherwise in some mysterious manner Nevill was able to get past the killer to leave the room to go try to arm himself in the kitchen, and June mysteriously was able to walk around the bed through the killer.   This is highly unlikely much more likely is that th ekiller left to reload and Nevill gave chase.

Upon entering the kitchen Nevill found the killer trying to reload the magazine so Nevill grabbed the gun.  The killer then proceded to strugle with him for control of the wepaon.  In the process they bumped into things knockign thm over, the moderator crashed against the lampshade breaking it and then as the gun was lowered to waist level with them fighting the moderator scratched the mantle.  Otherwise the moderator scratched the mantle as the killer was bashing Nevill with the butt of the rifle and thus the motion of bringing the rifle back to the killer resulted in the mantle being hit. 

The killer secured sole control of the weapon and began bashing Nevill with the stock.  He stuck his right arm in front to him to try to block the blows.  he butt of the rifle thus kept crashing into his arm. In the process his watch was ripped off and the various gouges and abrasions were left on his arm. The killer also hit Nevill in the face with his/her fists or with the rifle stock. Eventually the killer was able to bash Nevill's head in with the stock and in the process a piece of the stock broke off and Nevill was rendered unconscious.  During this beating the killer and weapon was splashed with Nevill's blood.  The re was medium velocity impact spatter on the stock of the rifle. The killer would have gotten his/her prints in such blood unless wearing gloves.  Moreover the killer would have suffered an injury to the hand when the stock broke unless wearing gloves.

The killer then reloaded and shot Nevill 4 times in the head killing him.  Rather than go upstairs with only  a partial magazine the killer released the mag and fully loaded it thus there were 11 rounds in the weapon (one in the chamber, 10 in the mag).  The killer then went upstairs and fired a shot between June's eyes to make sure she was dead.  Then the killer went to the boy's room and fired 8 shots total into them killing them.  That left 2 bullets left which were used to kill Sheila and then the gun was empty.

It is also possible Sheila was shot before the boys though that would only have happened if she woke up and was outside of her room when the killer returned upstairs but there is nothing to suggest that this happened. Obviously if Sheila had been the killer then she would have to have died last.  This is the only killer specific issue if she were the killer she had to have died last while the boys could have died last otherwise.

But Sheila wasn't the killer. Sheila was shot while seated against something.  The blood flowed down her shoulder and side of her breast.  After a short while she was dragged flat so that the gun could be placed on top of her body.  this resulted in blood flowing changing to run down the side of her neck to the floor instead of down her shoulder/breast.  The Bible was subsequently placed in this pool of blood.  The moderator was removed and placed in the closet and the gun was left on her chest. Quite obviously the she can't have moved her body and objects after she was dead so she can't have been the killer.



 



     

Hi Scip can I address the point I highlighted in red please.  June was not heading for the door at all she was on her way round to the other side of the bed.  This is apparent as she fell backward into the open door of the main bedroom.  If you look at the full image of that crime scene photo and imagine you lifted June to her standing position she was certainly not going out of the room.

The other point you make about Nevill sat on the bed, there is no evidence of that for there is no blood in that area of the bed....unless there is blood that does not show up on the photo. ?

The other point about the weights of the bullets used is that I am interested in the DRH/23 the whole bullet that was found in the plastic tray in the kitchen on its lonesome.  The largest weight I have seen of all the whole bullets is 37.54. I was trying to find out if Fletcher has fully examined that bullet and it appears there is no mention of it...

[scipio_usmc]

Hi Scip can I address the point I highlighted in red please.  June was not heading for the door at all she was on her way round to the other side of the bed.  This is apparent as she fell backward into the open door of the main bedroom.  If you look at the full image of that crime scene photo and imagine you lifted June to her standing position she was certainly not going out of the room.

The other point you make about Nevill sat on the bed, there is no evidence of that for there is no blood in that area of the bed....unless there is blood that does not show up on the photo. ?

The other point about the weights of the bullets used is that I am interested in the DRH/23 the whole bullet that was found in the plastic tray in the kitchen on its lonesome.  The largest weight I have seen of all the whole bullets is 37.54. I was trying to find out if Fletcher has fully examined that bullet and it appears there is no mention of it...

You are making the assumption that Nevill would have left blood on the bed though that is not necessarily the case.  He had clothes on which inhibits blood dripping.  Furthermore the bed wasn't tested so we have no way to know if there were any drips there or not.  The photos we have don't show the underbedding and don't even show the quilt well. A close-up picture would be needed to see static drips, spatter is mostly microscopic so we won't see that regardless in a photo. We don't see the spatter on June's side.  What we do see is blood from where June's wounds were touching the bedding because she was lying down when bleeding and thus bleeding on the bedding. In contrast Nevill's wounds were not to areas where his wounds would be touching the bedding.

If they saved the bedding a blood expert could have inspected the spatter using a SEM and other tools and could have figured out things that we can't.  But they didn't save it so we are stuck with photos of the blood where June was lying down and that's it.

We know Nevill dripped a drop blood in the hall but they didn't find a trail of drops all the way to the kitchen he was not bleeding that much in the sense of it dripping places moreso he got it by his bloody body bumping against things and transferring it.  Trying to talk would have left a mess though becausee his mouth had a lot of blood inside it and if you ever tried talking you would know if drips down your clothes.  When I got my wisdom teeth out my mouth filled with blood for days and I ruined a lot of shirts.  That was despite gauge in my mouth he didn't have that so opening his mouth would have made  a mess for sure.

June walked to Nevill's side of the bed then back towards the door and could not longer keep her balance and fell. She probably spun around to grab the bed to try to keep her balance but it was to little avail. She could also have simply spun loosing her balance. My dad fell yesterday and spun around as he did landing on one of my mom's swan planters. He's fat, it broke, she cried. He was facing the planter next thing you know he starts to fall spins around like a ballerina so has his back to the planter and falls on it CRUSH. He simply lost his footing somehow. June could have fallen seated at first and then her back fell to the floor after a bit of time, she didn't have to just tumble over like a domino. We don't have any way to know the exact nature of her tumble. If she had bashed her head in as she fell hat would provide some indication she fell like a domino.

The cliche she fell and could not get back up seems to fit.  She collapsed and then ended up stuck there till the shot between her eyes to make sure she was dead.  It was delivered while she was already on the floor and most likely already dead but the killer needed to be certain. All that matters is she was so severely injured she never made it out of the room.  If she were less injured and had been able to go help Nevill things could have turned out differently.   

With respect to DRH/23:

1) DRH/23 was technically an unfired cartridge.  While people often call unfired cartridges that is not technically correct and is imprecise language that can allow for confusion sometimes.  A bullet is a component of a complete cartridge.

2) I have never seen anything about DRH/23 or any of the other unfired cartridges being weighed.  Had they been weighed they would have weighed over 50 grains because the cartridge is made up of not only the bullet, but the case, but also the propellant and primer. When someone says 40 grain bullet that means the bullet alone weighs 40 grains before it is mated with the case. There would be no purpose served by weighing the entire cartridge and I have seen no evidence to suggest it happened.  If you want the weight of the bullet you have to remove it from the casing to weigh it alone.  You will often find that cartridges vary from one another by a small amount.  There is no way to know if that variation is the bullet, the casing, or the propellant unless you separate the cartridges into their components and weigh the components to see where the variation exists.

Jeremy dumped out the tray but but one of the bullets managed to stay inside. All that tells us is he was probably holding the side where the bullet remained when he dumped it.  That is not really of any use to us though.   

[mike tesko]

From my point of view, take away the four cartridge cases added to the main bedroom total, and there is no evidence whatsoever that Ralph Bamber was in bed or in the bedroom at all when he received any of the shots...

PI Bob Miller, was responsible for arranging these four additional bullet cases to become part of the main bedroom total, as well as recommendations for witnesses to alter exhibit references to a sound moderator to be altered from one exhibit reference to another, and then another, so that they turned separate moderators into the same one...

Nothing could be any clearer. The evidence proving this is there for all to see...

[mike tesko]

If you take away the four cartridge cases from the bedroom total (12), it leaves 8 to be accounted for in the bedroom - June shot 7 times, Sheila shot once (that's correct). The other cartridge case was not found in the main bedroom but outside on the top landing near the doorway. There was another case on the main stairs, there were 8 other cartridge cases in the twins room, and 3 more downstairs in the kitchen - leaving 4 more to be accounted for (the 4 PI Miller added to the main bedroom total with a view to making it appear as though Ralph had been shot 4 times in the main bedroom). I believe that these 4 nomadic cartridge cases were originally taken from the kitchen downstairs, and that in total there had been found 7 cartridge cases there, 6 of which related to Ralph Bamber, the other 1 associated with and to the initial shooting of Sheila Caffell downstairs in the kitchen...

[mike tesko]

The 'O' type blood found on wallpaper near the top of the main stairs and near the main kitchen door, was not uniquely associated with Ralph Bamber, since both children also had 'O' type blood, and it could have been there blood transferred there from the killer, either upon the killer herself, or the weapon...

[scipio_usmc]

From my point of view, take away the four cartridge cases added to the main bedroom total, and there is no evidence whatsoever that Ralph Bamber was in bed or in the bedroom at all when he received any of the shots...

PI Bob Miller, was responsible for arranging these four additional bullet cases to become part of the main bedroom total, as well as recommendations for witnesses to alter exhibit references to a sound moderator to be altered from one exhibit reference to another, and then another, so that they turned separate moderators into the same one...

Nothing could be any clearer. The evidence proving this is there for all to see...

You are ignoring th ebullet that grazed Nevill was found int he master bedroom.

In the meantime you have zero evidence any casings were moved to the master bedroom and there is no motive for police to do so.

[scipio_usmc]

The 'O' type blood found on wallpaper near the top of the main stairs and near the main kitchen door, was not uniquely associated with Ralph Bamber, since both children also had 'O' type blood, and it could have been there blood transferred there from the killer, either upon the killer herself, or the weapon...

The killer would not have any significant amount of blood from the boys on him/her to transfer to the wall.

[scipio_usmc]

By the way here are Radcliffe's statements where he says Nevill bought 500 rounds of Eley Subsonic Hollow Point 22LR ammunition:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1721.msg54988.html#msg54988

It needs to be added to the archive.