13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[Patti]

Yes I get that now, its just that I'd like to know where the bullet went for there are too many exit/grazed wounds to match the bullets found......June had 3 and Nevill had 1 so there should be 4 whole bullets found.....I can only account for 2 unless DRH 35 (twice) means two more bullets??

Yes I am right DRH/35 are two bullets.  Graze/exit call it what you want to, but at the end of the day we call it an exit wound....All the bullets do match up and all cases accounted for.

One wonder what we have been on about for the past hour hahahahahahaha It just makes me larf...

[scipio_usmc]

Because for the past 3 years we have been under the belief that Nevill had 8 shots to his poor body...What you are saying is that it was a graze and not an exit wound which is clearly diagrammed as being an exit wound along with a measurement of this wound which gives the same dimensions as other entry wounds.  What I am asking is, where does it mention an entry wound or grazes ext into the chest of Nevill Bamber in the pathology report?  The wound is clearly shown below the elbow, yet the notes state 4 inches above the elbow...I think the crime scene photograph is quite clear that the wound goes down towards the thinness of his arm and not the thicker part of his arm....

Maybe I am not graping what you are saying......Did Nevill have 7 shots or 8 shots? And where is the bullet that grazed his arm, for there is not entry wounds to the chest? 

Ok you are forcing me to type out the relevant portions of the autopsy report instead of jus tposting the image of the report passages.

"Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2", situated 4 inches above the left elbow"

It says grazing wound.  A grazing wound means the bullet touches the outside of the body and doesn't actually enter the interior of the body.  You probably heard of a flesh wound or superficial gunshot wound.  These are other terms for a graze wound. 

"The track of this wound was from the left arm and against the left side of the lower chest causing a 1 1/2" graze"

So it also grazed his lower chest.  After grazing his chest it ended up on the floor.  This fragment was recovered by the crime scene investigators in the bedroom and was labeled DRH/5.

So when you see exit on the diagram it doesn't mean there was an exit wound.  That is where the graze wound stopped on the arm and then picked up on the chest. What is someone unusual is that a few small fragments did break off the bullet and enter Nevill's side.  Most of the bullet grazed his chest and landed on the floor but a few tiny fragments entered his side.  This is noted in the report by this passage, "The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in the left lower chest although these could not be located within the body cavity".  The upshot is they were too tiny for him to locate.  So what happened is a few tiny pieces broke off and were still traveling at high speed so were able to get inside his body.  The bulk of the bullet though grazed his chest instead of entering and ultimately landed in the room.

So this was a mixed wound.  It was mostly a graze wound but a small portion of the bullet did enter his side. 

The primary significance of the fact that the majority of the bullet merely grazed him is that it resulted in the bullet being found in the bedroom so we know that is where this shot was received by Nevill.  Of secondary note though is that this wound didn't cause any real damage to him. It would have stung and could have caused long term problems like infection but would have no real impact on him so far as his ability to defend himself or causing any blood loss.     

Most of his bleeding was internal particularly in side his mouth.  If he tried to speak he would have had blood flowing down his face onto his lower body.  His face was obviously hit by the killer during the struggle and I would be willing to wager a noteworthy amount of blood  got on the killer and weapon at that point.   

[Patti]

Ok you are forcing me to type out the relevant portions of the autopsy report instead of jus tposting the image of the report passages.

"Oblique grazing wound measuring 1/2", situated 4 inches above the left elbow"

It says grazing wound.  A grazing wound means the bullet touches the outside of the body and doesn't actually enter the interior of the body.  You probably heard of a flesh wound or superficial gunshot wound.  These are other terms for a graze wound. 

"The track of this wound was from the left arm and against the left side of the lower chest causing a 1 1/2" graze"

So it also grazed his lower chest.  After grazing his chest it ended up on the floor.  This fragment was recovered by the crime scene investigators in the bedroom and was labeled DRH/5.

So when you see exit on the diagram it doesn't mean there was an exit wound.  That is where the graze wound stopped on the arm and then picked up on the chest. What is someone unusual is that a few small fragments did break off the bullet and enter Nevill's side.  Most of the bullet grazed his chest and landed on the floor but a few tiny fragments entered his side.  This is noted in the report by this passage, "The radiograph showed fragments of a bullet in the left lower chest although these could not be located within the body cavity".  The upshot is they were too tiny for him to locate.  So what happened is a few tiny pieces broke off and were still traveling at high speed so were able to get inside his body.  The bulk of the bullet though grazed his chest instead of entering and ultimately landed in the room.

So this was a mixed wound.  It was mostly a graze wound but a small portion of the bullet did enter his side. 

The primary significance of the fact that the majority of the bullet merely grazed him is that it resulted in the bullet being found in the bedroom so we know that is where this shot was received by Nevill.  Of secondary note though is that this wound didn't cause any real damage to him. It would have stung and could have caused long term problems like infection but would have no real impact on him so far as his ability to defend himself or causing any blood loss.     

Most of his bleeding was internal particularly in side his mouth.  If he tried to speak he would have had blood flowing down his face onto his lower body.  His face was obviously hit by the killer during the struggle and I would be willing to wager a noteworthy amount of blood  got on the killer and weapon at that point.

Its OK Scip I get it now, thank you.  Sorry for spinning this out, but had to be sure that what I understood was right....

So we call it an exit wound. It matters not that it touched the skin and made a small entry, the bullet escaped and ended up on June's side of the bed. Now can we determine where the shooter was and where Nevill was stood was this information....

See my last post.....

[scipio_usmc]

Yes I am right DRH/35 are two bullets.  Graze/exit call it what you want to, but at the end of the day we call it an exit wound....All the bullets do match up and all cases accounted for.

One wonder what we have been on about for the past hour hahahahahahaha It just makes me larf...

DRH/35a and DRH/35b were bullet fragments that exited June and entered her pillow.  DRH/5 is the bullet fragment that grazed Nevill.  I get tired of posting this but I guess it is necessary until peopel actually absorb this information:

Largest fragment from each wound suffered by victims:


Master Bedroom
Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
PV/10 (lip)         
PV/11 (jaw)

June
PV/23 lower chest
PV/26 above right ear
PV/24 right upper chest
PV/25 between eyes 
DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)

Sheila
PV/19 chin
PV/20 neck

Kitchen
Nevill
PV/3 top of skull
PV/4 top of skull
PV/8 upper right skull
PV/9 upper right skull

Bedroom the twins were in
Daniel
PV/34 (highest wound)
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
PV/30 3/16"
PV/31 3/16"
(bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered)


---------

The largest fragment of every bullet was recovered EXCEPT one of the bullets that killed Nicholas.

[mike tesko]

  DRH/5 is the bullet fragment that grazed Nevill. 

Largest fragment from each wound suffered by victims:


Master Bedroom

DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)

Get your facts right (how many times do I have to keep correcting you) Bullet DRH/5 was not a bullet fragment, it was a WHOLE bullet (.22LR) weighing 2.42 gram...

[scipio_usmc]

Its OK Scip I get it now, thank you.  Sorry for spinning this out, but had to be sure that what I understood was right....

So we call it an exit wound. It matters not that it touched the skin and made a small entry, the bullet escaped and ended up on June's side of the bed. Now can we determine where the shooter was and where Nevill was stood was this information....

See my last post.....

Unfortunately it is more complex than this.  Unjacketed 22LR hollow points are notorious for ricocheting.  Thus trying to track where the shooter was by where the bullet ended up won't work.  If it were this simple I would have noted it long ago since for the past year plus I have noted the bullet merely grazed him.

The bullet weighed about 24 grains I believe and that means more than just a few tiny fragments broke off, it probably broken after it ricocheted against something.  Had a ballistic expert been called to the scene such person could potentially have figured out where it ricocheted from but that didn't happen so we are left with no basis to assess such.   

[mike tesko]

Get your facts right (how many times do I have to keep correcting you) Bullet DRH/5 was not a bullet fragment, it was a WHOLE bullet (.22LR) weighing 2.42 gram...

A bullet (.22LR), not purchased on any occasion, by Ralph Bamber...

[Patti]

DRH/35a and DRH/35b were bullet fragments that exited June and entered her pillow.  DRH/5 is the bullet fragment that grazed Nevill.  I get tired of posting this but I guess it is necessary until peopel actually absorb this information:

Largest fragment from each wound suffered by victims:


Master Bedroom
Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder)
DRH/5 (Arm/chest Graze wound)
PV/10 (lip)         
PV/11 (jaw)

June
PV/23 lower chest
PV/26 above right ear
PV/24 right upper chest
PV/25 between eyes 
DRH/35a lower neck (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/35b forearm (bullet exited into pillow)
DRH/9 knee (bullet exited into bed)

Sheila
PV/19 chin
PV/20 neck

Kitchen
Nevill
PV/3 top of skull
PV/4 top of skull
PV/8 upper right skull
PV/9 upper right skull

Bedroom the twins were in
Daniel
PV/34 (highest wound)
PV/35
PV/36
PV/29
DRH/36 (bullet exited and landed in bedroom)

Nicholas
PV/30 3/16"
PV/31 3/16"
(bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered)


---------

The largest fragment of every bullet was recovered EXCEPT one of the bullets that killed Nicholas.

Yes I know Scip I did this one ages ago...2012? Maybe

KITCHEN
DRH/41 case...under kitchen table
DRH/ 19 case...on kitchen table
DRH/20 case....under the mat, infront of sink
DRH/23 bullet.....in a plastic tray on worktop near sink unit.

LANDING

DRH/14...landing floor adjacent to the wall.

MAIN BEDROOM


DRH/13 metal strip of doorway
DRH/6 top of quit right hand side of the bed
DRH/7 under wardrobe
DRH/7 under wardrobe (note Hammersley quotes two cases found under same serial number DRH7
DRH/8 left hand side of bed 4inches from the pillow
DRH/9 Bullet found 4 inches form DRH/8 near pillow left hand side of bed
DRH/10  on the quilt right hand side of the bed on floor.
DRH/11 right hand side of bed on the floor near the wardrobe
DRH/12 on the floor right hand side of the bed
DRH/43 under the wardrobe right hand side of bed
DRH/1 right side of Sheila's body
DRH/2 Left hand side of Sheila's body
DRH/3 on the floor inside the door of the main bedroom to the left of June's body.
DRH/4 next to DRH/3
DRH/5 Bullet.

TWINS ROOM

8 cases and 1 bullet.

DRH/37 under wooden bedside cabinet
DRH/36 Bullet
DRH/38 Under right hand side of the bed at the head of the bed
DRH 39 right hand corner under right hand side of the bed
DRH/39 (note Hammersley quotes two case shells)
DRH 40 under the middle of the right hand bed
DRH/16 floor between both beds
DRH/17 On wooden cabinet between both beds
DRH18 right hand side of bed

[scipio_usmc]

Get your facts right (how many times do I have to keep correcting you) Bullet DRH/5 was not a bullet fragment, it was a WHOLE bullet (.22LR) weighing 2.42 gram...

My facts are straight, a complete Eley 22LR Hollow Point weighs 240 grains (2.59 grams) you made up a LIE that they weigh 35 grains.  I have to go look at the chart but I am pretty sure DRH/5 was only around 24 grains.

[Patti]

Unfortunately it is more complex than this.  Unjacketed 22LR hollow points are notorious for ricocheting.  Thus trying to track where the shooter was by where the bullet ended up won't work.  If it were this simple I would have noted it long ago since for the past year plus I have noted the bullet merely grazed him.

The bullet weighed about 24 grains I believe and that means more than just a few tiny fragments broke off, it probably broken after it ricocheted against something.  Had a ballistic expert been called to the scene such person could potentially have figured out where it ricocheted from but that didn't happen so we are left with no basis to assess such.   

24 grains is practically classed as a whole bullet, which is what it is documented as being.  What ballistics did not do of course is match the fragments to the bullets...like a jigsaw puzzle.

It clearly states here that DRH/5 was whole.

[mike tesko]

My facts are straight, a complete Eley 22LR Hollow Point weighs 240 grains (2.59 grams) you made up a LIE that they weigh 35 grains.  I have to go look at the chart but I am pretty sure DRH/5 was only around 24 grains.

I have a chart, Eley .22 subsonic bullets, weighed 35 grain, or 2.27 grams, Ralph never purchased .22LR bullets, you have been provided with the gun dealers records, and sale invoice. Where does it mention that Ralph Bamber purchased Eley .22LR subsonic hollow point bullets on the 30th November 1984? You are manipulating the facts to support your false arguments, sort yourself out...

DRH/5 - .22LR Bullet (2.42g / 37.00 grain) Nr dressing table in main bedroom (7)fired via second principle rifle

[scipio_usmc]

24 grains is practically classed as a whole bullet, which is what it is documented as being.  What ballistics did not do of course is match the fragments to the bullets...like a jigsaw puzzle.

Upon checking the chart it was DRH/9 that was small not DRH/5.  DRH/5 was around 37 grain so only missing 3 grains. 

There is no way to put bullets back together like a jigsaw puzzle.  There will always be tiny fragments that go unrecovered.

The limited info available is not enough to say DRH/5 didn't deflect or ricochet and that makes it impossible for us to determine where the shooter was. At best we could determine around where the shooter was IF the bullet didn't deflect. 

[mike tesko]

My facts are straight, a complete Eley 22LR Hollow Point weighs 240 grains (2.59 grams) you made up a LIE that they weigh 35 grains.  I have to go look at the chart but I am pretty sure DRH/5 was only around 24 grains.

Wrong, again - how many more times are you going to be making such basic and fundamental mistakes?

[Patti]

Also

[Patti]

Upon checking the chart it was DRH/9 that was small not DRH/5.  DRH/5 was around 37 grain so only missing 3 grains. 

There is no way to put bullets back together like a jigsaw puzzle.  There will always be tiny fragments that go unrecovered.

The limited info available is not enough to say DRH/5 didn't deflect or ricochet and that makes it impossible for us to determine where the shooter was. At best we could determine around where the shooter was IF the bullet didn't deflect.

DRH/5 weighed in at 37 and was classed as a solid bullet.