Author Topic: 13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...  (Read 51539 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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But then you would have had the problem of Nevill's body in the bedroom and Sheila might not have been so compliant had she seen it.

He banked on her being scared of the gun and compliant for that reason.  We don't know whether he planned in advance where to stage Sheila's suicide let alone know whether he changed his ind at some point and decided to stage it somewhere different.  Prior to the murders he mentioned to Julie his plan to fake a call from WHF.  He didn't tell her anything about planning to stage Sheila's suicide in a particular location.  He could simply have decided not to tell her the minute details or might not have thought through every minute detail in advance.  It was probably a mix of both.
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Offline mike tesko

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As a result of my findings of these matters, I can say with almost certainty that cartridge cases were displaced from the region of the kitchen downstairs, and wrongly attributed to the main bedroom upstairs, in the following circumstances...

As I have already pointed out, two of the four non fatal shots inflicted upon Ralph Bamber occurred with him coming up (8), or going down (7) the main stairs. One of these cartridge cases (the one on the top landing near to the main bedroom door) was added to the main bedroom total. The dented bullet case on the main stair was attributed to one of the four fatal head shots inflicted in the kitchen. This left two further non fatal shots (5 and 6) to be accounted for. Since the angle of inclination of the two mouth shots is an indication that the shooter intended to prevent Ralph from speaking further to anyone, it seems reasonable to assume that these two mouth shots were inflicted downstairs in the main kitchen in the region of the telephone. Both of the cartridges associated with these two shots were transferred from point of recovery in the main kitchen downstairs, into the main bedroom upstairs. This leaves us with having to account for the whereabouts of the other four fatal head shot cartridge cases inflicted whilst Ralph was present downstairs in the main kitchen. There should have been therefore a total of 6 cartridge cases recovered from the vicinity of the main kitchen, yet only three ended up being found there. It is possible to work out what the police ended up having to do, in their attempt to cook the books, regarding the locations at which all the cartridge cases had been found. Three kitchen cartridge cases were moved up to the main bedroom crime scene, which along with inclusion of the cartridge case from the top landing  making up the four cartridge cases which had to be displaced into the main bedroom scenario. This left three cartridge cases downstairs in the main kitchen scene, which became four, when the dented case from the main stair was carried over to produce a total of four. In actual fact, there should have been a 7th cartridge case in the region of the kitchen (bullet linked to the initial shooting of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen), this was also transferred into the main bedroom scenario...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 10:56:PM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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wound 7 was the wound to his outer left shoulder and 8 the graze wound which grazed his arm then his chest.

Had these been delivered in the hall then 2 less casings would have been found in the bedroom and instead they would have been found in the hallway.  Furtherore, the bullet that caused the graze wound would have been found on the stairs or in the wall adjacent to the stairs. Moreover, since the bullets came at Nevill's left side that means it is impossible for them to have been delivered when Neville was walking down the stairs because he left side would be to the wall it would  only be possible to target his left side if he was coming up the stairs.  Finally the angles were down but not very steep so he would have to be near the top of the stairs to be shot at those angles.

The evidence belies your claims.

No, it doesn't...

bullet wound 8 did not graze Ralph Bambers left arm, it penetrated it...

Angle of trajectory of bullet wounds 8 and 7, consistent with him approaching up, or retreating down the main stairs...

Angle of trajectory of bullet wounds 5 and 6, consistent with the shooter shooting him deliberately in the mouth, whilst Ralph was either using the phone in the kitchen, or he having already just used the phone...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 11:18:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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No, it doesn't...

bullet wound 8 did not graze Ralph Bambers left arm, it penetrated it...

Angle of trajectory of bullet wounds 8 and 7, consistent with him approaching up, or retreating down the main stairs...

Angle of trajectory of bullet wounds 5 and 6, consistent with the shooter shooting him deliberately in the mouth, whilst Ralph was either using the phone in the kitchen, or he having already just used the phone...

Are you truly confused or just playing more games?  This is one of the reasons why your past dishonesty hurts you, because it makes it hard to tell if you are genuinely in error or intentionally twisting. 

The photo you posted is not of a bullet wound, it is a gouge made to Nevill's right forearm by the corner of the butt of the rifle when Nevill tried to block a blow with his arm.

The graze wound to his arm was to his upper arm.  The bullet grazed his upper arm around the elbow then continued across his chest thus grazed his chest as well.

Since the diagram you posted of the 8 bullet wounds to Nevill failed to show any bullet wounds to Nevill's forearms and the following is clear enough that you should be able to comprehend it, combined with your past antics I find it hard to believe you are merely confused:

« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 12:36:AM by scipio_usmc »
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Offline Steve_uk

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He banked on her being scared of the gun and compliant for that reason.  We don't know whether he planned in advance where to stage Sheila's suicide let alone know whether he changed his ind at some point and decided to stage it somewhere different.  Prior to the murders he mentioned to Julie his plan to fake a call from WHF.  He didn't tell her anything about planning to stage Sheila's suicide in a particular location.  He could simply have decided not to tell her the minute details or might not have thought through every minute detail in advance.  It was probably a mix of both.
I don't see Sheila ever being threatened with a gun. Had she been her first thought would have been to run to the twins' room. In the context of Jeremy being guilty she would inevitably have had to walk over June or at least witness her demise,but this is less problematical than the scenario you suggest.

Offline scipio_usmc

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As a result of my findings of these matters, I can say with almost certainty that cartridge cases were displaced from the region of the kitchen downstairs, and wrongly attributed to the main bedroom upstairs, in the following circumstances...

As I have already pointed out, two of the four non fatal shots inflicted upon Ralph Bamber occurred with him coming up (8), or going down (7) the main stairs. One of these cartridge cases (the one on the top landing near to the main bedroom door) was added to the main bedroom total. The dented bullet case on the main stair was attributed to one of the four fatal head shots inflicted in the kitchen. This left two further non fatal shots (5 and 6) to be accounted for. Since the angle of inclination of the two mouth shots is an indication that the shooter intended to prevent Ralph from speaking further to anyone, it seems reasonable to assume that these two mouth shots were inflicted downstairs in the main kitchen in the region of the telephone. Both of the cartridges associated with these two shots were transferred from point of recovery in the main kitchen downstairs, into the main bedroom upstairs. This leaves us with having to account for the whereabouts of the other four fatal head shot cartridge cases inflicted whilst Ralph was present downstairs in the main kitchen. There should have been therefore a total of 6 cartridge cases recovered from the vicinity of the main kitchen, yet only three ended up being found there. It is possible to work out what the police ended up having to do, in their attempt to cook the books, regarding the locations at which all the cartridge cases had been found. Three kitchen cartridge cases were moved up to the main bedroom crime scene, which along with inclusion of the cartridge case from the top landing  making up the four cartridge cases which had to be displaced into the main bedroom scenario. This left three cartridge cases downstairs in the main kitchen scene, which became four, when the dented case from the main stair was carried over to produce a total of four. In actual fact, there should have been a 7th cartridge case in the region of the kitchen (bullet linked to the initial shooting of Sheila downstairs in the kitchen), this was also transferred into the main bedroom scenario...

Your claim the graze wound and shot to Nevill's shoulder were delivered as he walked down the stairs is impossible given the shooter was facing his left side and his left side would face the wall as he walked down the stairs.  You failed to post any evidence at all to establish these wounds were delivered as he walked up the stairs and was near the top of the stairs which wound be needed for incline of the shots.    The shooter could only target his left if standing near the door of the bedroom Sheila was using.  The angle of the shot though would not work and especially would not work for the graze wound.  Though they were to the side profile of Nevill they came from the rear not forward.  A shooter standing near the door of the room Sheila was in would come from the front side.   If he were going down the stairs only his right side could be targeted.


Furthermore there would have been 2 less casings in the bedroom and 2 additional casings on the stairs. 

The single casing in the hallway was transported there from the kitchen.

The 4 casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being located in the bedroom helps prove that is where such 4 shots were fired.  For sure the trajectories rule out the shots being delivered as he was in the hall or on the stairs.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 12:53:AM by scipio_usmc »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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I don't see Sheila ever being threatened with a gun. Had she been her first thought would have been to run to the twins' room. In the context of Jeremy being guilty she would inevitably have had to walk over June or at least witness her demise,but this is less problematical than the scenario you suggest.

Most people who are threatened with a gun freeze and do as they are told.  Obviously Sheila wasn't beaten into submission, she complied.  Whether she complied because he threatened to kill the boys or was simply scared she would be shot if she didn't comply makes little difference.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Are you truly confused or just playing more games?  This is one of the reasons why your past dishonesty hurts you, because it makes it hard to tell if you are genuinely in error or intentionally twisting. 

The photo you posted is not of a bullet wound, it is a gouge made to Nevill's right forearm by the corner of the butt of the rifle when Nevill tried to block a blow with his arm.

The graze wound to his arm was to his upper arm.  The bullet grazed his upper arm around the elbow then continued across his chest thus grazed his chest as well.

Since the diagram you posted of the 8 bullet wounds to Nevill failed to show any bullet wounds to Nevill's forearms and the following is clear enough that you should be able to comprehend it, combined with your past antics I find it hard to believe you are merely confused:


I thought it was never determined what caused the gouge marks? Was blood of Neveils blood group ever found on the butt of the rifle?

Offline scipio_usmc

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For the sake of clarity I am going to use a clock to describe where the killer was standing Nevill was shot the first 4 times.  The 12 O'clock position is to Nevill's front.  The 6 O'clock position is to Nevill's behind. The 3 O'clock position is to Nevill's right and 9 O'clock is to Nevill's left.

Classified wound #5 according to the Autopsy report (lip)- 9-10 O'clock
Classified wound #6 according to the Autopsy report (lower jaw)- 9-10 O'Clock
Classified wound #7 according to the Autopsy report (shoulder)- 8 O'Clock
Classified wound #8 according to the Autopsy report (graze wounds)- between 8 and 9 O'clock

All of the wounds had a downward angle.  Because of Nevill's height if he had been fully upright his killer would needed to be taller than him to deliver the wounds at a downward angle.  This effectively means that Nevill was either not fully upright when shot or the killer was standing at a higher level than Nevill. 

Someone standing near the door of the room Sheila slept in could not target the left side of someone who is walking down the stairs only the right side could be targeted when someone is going down. Conversely when someone is walking up the stairs their right side cannot be targeted only their left.  The further down the stairs the more steep the incline of the bullet would be.

Someone standing near Sheila's door shooting at someone walking up the stairs would be in between the 10-12 O'Clock positions.  perhaps for a short period of time, if timed perfectly there would be a way to pull off the 9-10 O'clock shots (wounds 5 and 6); however, it would be impossible from such a location to pull off the latter two shots which came from someone standing to the left rear of Nevill when the shots were fired.

Obviously if wounds 5 and 6 had been delivered in the hall then the bullet that grazed Nevill wound have been found in the hall along with 2 casings but these casings and this bullet were found in the bedroom. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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I thought it was never determined what caused the gouge marks? Was blood of Neveils blood group ever found on the butt of the rifle?

It is clear that the wounds were made by the rifle butt.

1) We know that they are defensive wounds

2) Defensive wounds are the result of trying to block damage from occurring

3) They match the kinds of wounds known to be made by the butt of the rifle

4) We know Nevill's head was bashed in with the butt of the rifle so he would would be trying to defend against such blows.

Vanezis was not a military doctor, nor knew anything about how one would go about using a gun as a bludgeoning instrument.  He opined a different the front of the rifle was used in stabbing motions to cause the wounds.  Such is stupid because) A) that is not a practical way to use a weapon B) it would not result in the longer/wider abrasions he observed C) the moderator was attached to the weapon so there is no way at all the gouge marks could have been made by the front of the gun even if someone used it in the stupid manner he suggested. 

With a glancing blow the butt of a rifle causes linear scrapes (the ones he had no idea what caused).  When the corner digs into the skin it causes the gouges like we saw in the photo Mike posted (that Mike incorrectly claimed was a bullet wound).  There is no doubt the wounds were made by the butt of the rifle.

The burns to Nevill's back could have been made by a variety of things so even if done in the course of the murders we have no way to figure out for sure what was used.

They were unable to successfully do grouping tests to the blood found on the rifle stock but it had to be Nevill's.  The blood was medium velocity impact spatter.  It was the result of bashing someone with the butt of the weapon and blood of the victim splashing the killer/weapon. No other victim was beaten so there is no one the blood could belong to besides Nevill. 

It would be like police walking into a room where my fists are covered in blood, 1 person in the room has a busted nose and face covered in blood and the only other 2 people there have no injuries that would have resulted in the blood on my hands nor have and blood on their hands or clothes so they can't have beaten the victim.  If none of us say a word to police they still would be able to tell I broke the guy's nose.  A blood test is not necessary to establish such.  The evidence speaks for itself. 
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Offline susan

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No all 25 casings were determined to have been fired by the Anschutz.  Furthermore, the only 22LR weapon at WHF for the killer to access at the time of the murders was the Anschutz. If the killer had another weapon to turn to after firing the initial 10 shots in the bedroom then the killer would have fired more shots into Nevill then and there instead of things progressing to the kitchen.  If the killer had another loaded rifle in the kitchen then the killer would have used it to shoot Nevill instead of beating him.

The whole reason Nevill was beaten is because he was not injured enough to disable him and he was trying to take the rifle away from the killer and to prevent the killer from reloading.  The killer had to render him unconscious just to be able to reload.

Scipio thanks for that it makes good sense to me.  I have often wondered had the killer been successful in killing Ralph in the main bedroom how he would have staged the telephone so as to convince the police Ralph had phoned him I guess it worked out better the fact Ralph made his way to the kitchen and died there.

Offline mike tesko

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Are you truly confused or just playing more games?  This is one of the reasons why your past dishonesty hurts you, because it makes it hard to tell if you are genuinely in error or intentionally twisting. 

The photo you posted is not of a bullet wound, it is a gouge made to Nevill's right forearm by the corner of the butt of the rifle when Nevill tried to block a blow with his arm.

The graze wound to his arm was to his upper arm.  The bullet grazed his upper arm around the elbow then continued across his chest thus grazed his chest as well.

Since the diagram you posted of the 8 bullet wounds to Nevill failed to show any bullet wounds to Nevill's forearms and the following is clear enough that you should be able to comprehend it, combined with your past antics I find it hard to believe you are merely confused:



This was no graze, it is a bullet exit would...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Your claim the graze wound and shot to Nevill's shoulder were delivered as he walked down the stairs is impossible given the shooter was facing his left side and his left side would face the wall as he walked down the stairs.  You failed to post any evidence at all to establish these wounds were delivered as he walked up the stairs and was near the top of the stairs which wound be needed for incline of the shots.    The shooter could only target his left if standing near the door of the bedroom Sheila was using.  The angle of the shot though would not work and especially would not work for the graze wound.  Though they were to the side profile of Nevill they came from the rear not forward.  A shooter standing near the door of the room Sheila was in would come from the front side.   If he were going down the stairs only his right side could be targeted.


Furthermore there would have been 2 less casings in the bedroom and 2 additional casings on the stairs. 

The single casing in the hallway was transported there from the kitchen.

The 4 casings and bullet that grazed Nevill being located in the bedroom helps prove that is where such 4 shots were fired.  For sure the trajectories rule out the shots being delivered as he was in the hall or on the stairs.

Firstly, I have posted evidence that shots 8 and 7 were delivered from above Ralph Bamber by reference to the angle inclination shown in the diagrams. Let me put it as simple as I can - Ralph is on the middle landing of the main stairs, and or somewhere on the upper flight of the main stair above the middle landing aforementioned. The shooter could have easily shot at Ralph causing the two wounds (8 and 7) from the vantage point of the upper landing, since with Ralph on his way up, or down on that part of the main stairs, it didn't matter whether or not which way around his body was facing because the shooter would easily have had the opportunity to inflict both shots, irrespective of whether or not Ralph had his left side to the wall, or his right side...

I have explained the distribution of cases, and how four were added to the main bedroom, after PI Bob Miller vacated items which originally had exhibit references DRH/1, DRH/2, DRH/3 and DRH/4, if you can't get your head around that then there is quite simply no hope of you ever coming to terms with what actually took place. But just to recap, 8 cartridge cases originally in the main bedroom, add to these 4 additional cases displaced from the kitchen, producing 12 cartridge cases in the main bedroom. I know you you disagree, but so what, I know that what I am saying is right. The 13th cartridge case was not inside the main bedroom, it was outside on the top landing. I believe it possible that this particular cartridge case may have got moved along the top landing by traffic coming and going before DC Hammersley (soc) supposedly collected it up after 10 am...

I believe the cartridge cases recovered from the top landing and the main stair are associated with Ralphs 8 and 7 wounds...

If I am right, and I believe that I am, Ralph Bamber was shot a total of 6 times whilst present in the kitchen - two bullets to the mouth region whilst he was using, or had used the telephone. we know that blood from his wounded left arm had contaminated the fingers of his left hand which contaminated the edge of the kitchen worktop. by that stage when his bloodied left hand fingers gripped the kitchen worktop, it left his uninjured right arm / hand to operate the telephone, and it begs the question why would he be holding the telephone handset in his right hand intending to make a telephone call, if he already had a mouthful of bullets - this indicates that by the time he used the phone to make distress calls (however brief) firstly to Jeremy, and then to the police at 3.26am, that he had not yet been shot in the lip, or his jaw...

Police made a fundamental mistake moving the location of four bullet cases from the region of the main kitchen downstairs, to the main bedroom upstairs, because it left 3 cartridge cases in the kitchen, when there should only have been 2. In other words, they were faced with a paradox, and whichever way they decided to handle it, they were always going to be in trouble one way or another, they could doctor the logistics as much as they wanted to, but they could never make the logistics fit perfectly. If you remove 4 cases from the kitchen to promote the idea that Ralph had been shot 4 times non fatally upstairs in the main bedroom, it should have left two cartridge cases downstairs in the kitchen (4 cases from the 4 fatal head shots, and 2 cases from the bullets to the mouth shots), but when PI Bob Miller handled the swap over of these 4 cartridge cases, he made the fundamental mistake of leaving an additional cartridge case in the kitchen, he confused himself by forgetting, or indeed, remembering that Sheila had in fact been shot once downstairs in the kitchen...

Now, before you get on your high horse, by suggesting that Sheila was not shot downstairs in the kitchen, let me reassure you that she was. The story that PC Collins made a mistake by misidentifying Ralphs body for that of a female through the main kitchen window prior to entry into the premises by the raid team (including PC Collins himself), can easily be proven to be nothing but a red herring, since in his COLP interview, Collins himself describes the approach to the rear farmhouse door on WHITE SIDE of the farmhouse via a curved wall, and that he went beyond the door and looked into the kitchen window beyond. Now, he is correct when he says that the window he looked through beyond the door being a kitchen window. But the window in question was not the main kitchen window, it was the back kitchen window - the window before the door was / is the main kitchen window. Therefore, Collins saw a female through the back kitchen window, and of course, Ralph Bambers body was found inside the main kitchen. So, in a nutshell, Collins could not possibly have misidentified Ralphs body in one room, for the body of a female in the other room, or vice versa...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Scipio thanks for that it makes good sense to me.  I have often wondered had the killer been successful in killing Ralph in the main bedroom how he would have staged the telephone so as to convince the police Ralph had phoned him I guess it worked out better the fact Ralph made his way to the kitchen and died there.

If he was killed in the bedroom then the phone probably would have been returned. Things progressing to the kitchen eliminated any such need though.
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Offline susan

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If he was killed in the bedroom then the phone probably would have been returned. Things progressing to the kitchen eliminated any such need though.

Scipio I thought that too and it would have been left off the cradle as it was in the kitchen,