13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...

[Steve_uk]

The 25 casings prove the Anschutz fired all 25 rounds. The firing pin impressions, extraction marks and breech marks were conclusively tied to the Anschutz.

Furthermore they help establish where the shots were fired.  the only casing in a different room than fired in was DRH/14 which was in the upstairs hall kicked against the wall but had been in the.  We know all 4 shots to Nevill's head was fired in the kitchen and the kitchen was missing a casing so that is how we know it was transported upstairs.

So Nevill was not placed definitively in the master bedroom when the incident started?

[Patti]

I thought I'd read somewhere that Police had made a call from that office telephone.

Steve, I have read the same but I am not sure which phone was used....

[scipio_usmc]

Upstairs office phone originally left off the hook after Ralph had first of all called Jeremy (3.25am), and then the police (3.26am)...

The upstairs phone was on the cradle, only the kitchen phone was found off the cradle.

[Patti]

AE didn't specify for sure whether the phone was ringing or she got a busy signal.  She simply indicated she was trying to call.  She said she got no answer???


Yes a cop made a call from the kitchen phone early on and could potentially have hung it up though I believe he claimed he hung the phone up then removed it from the cradle again to leave it the way it was.

When the raid team entered the kitchen phone was off the cradle and that was why the phone company said it was engaged and they had to cut into the line in order to listen.

[scipio_usmc]

Steve, I have read the same but I am not sure which phone was used....

It was the kitchen phone.  I am fairly sure the source specified he made sure to leave it back off the hook when he was done.

[scipio_usmc]

Saying she got no answer doesn't preclude getting no answer because it was constantly busy as opposed to ringing forever with no one answering.

[mike tesko]

I'm still not sure what the significance of the casings is(especially this lost bullet) if someone could spell it out for me.

Prosecution case was that Ralph had been shot 8 times (four non fatal, four fatal). Evidence elsewhere, suggests that Ralph had only been shot seven times, and that one of these 7 bullets had grazed one part of his body, before entering another part of his body. Somebody else has suggested that the solitary surplus loose bullet recovered from the main bedroom, was / is in fact the 8th bullet fired at Ralph Bamber. So, we have a dilemma, was Ralph shot with 8 bullets which caused 8 separate bullet wounds in various locations of his body, or was he shot by use of 7 bullets which caused 8 bullet wound type injuries?

12 bullet cases found / recovered from the vicinity of the main bedroom...

Prosecution argument was that Ralph Bamber had already been shot non fatally 4 times in the main bedroom, before he reached the downstairs kitchen, and would therefore not have been able to make a telephone call to anybody because he had already been shot in the lip, and the jaw. We therefore have two different scenarios to consider, was Ralph shot by 7 bullets, or 8?

If two of the 8 bullet wounds was caused by one of 7 bullets fired at him, it means that the prosecution argument that he had already been shot 4 times none fatally whilst in the bedroom before he ended up downstairs, is wrong, and that in fact he had only been shot three times in the bedroom. ..

Four loose bullets found in the bedroom, three of which can be directly associated with three bullet exit wounds found on June Bambers body. So, with this in mind, 3 of the 12 corresponding bullet cases must relate to three loose bullets mentioned (leaving 9 bullet cases to still be accounted for). Well, June had been shot a total of 7 times so we can deduct four more bullet cases from that remaining total of 9 bullet cases, which leaves five bullet cases to be accounted for. Someone has claimed that the last remaining loose bullet, relates to one of the 8 bullet wounds sustained by Ralph Bamber, which when deducted from the running total of five remaining bullet cases yet to be accounted for, leaves 4 bullet cases still to be accounted for, with three more shots to Ralph in the bedroom, and two shots to Sheila in the bedroom, still to be taken into account. Lets take the other three non fatal shots into Ralph into account, deduct these from the remaining four bullet cases, leaving only 1 bullet case in the main bedroom to accommodate the two shots which the prosecution claim was the number of times that Sheila had been shot in the bedroom, but this cannot be true because there are not enough bullet cases left to be accounted for from the bedroom, only one bullet case, to balance against two bullets used in the shooting of Sheila. I am saying that Essex police have dropped a clanger in staging the scene during informatives in the bedroom, by claiming that Sheila was shot twice in the bedroom when she could not possibly have been. There wasn't enough bullet cases found in the bedroom for Sheila to have been shot twice there, she was shot only once in the main bedroom like I have always been maintaining she was...

Hope this helps...

[scipio_usmc]

So Nevill was not placed definitively in the master bedroom when the incident started?

Nevill and June were both in the master bedroom when it started.  4 bullets were used on Nevill and at least 6 on June in the initial incident.  1 bullet grazed Neivll and remained in the room.  The other 3 were recovered from his body. 

It is hard to accept June walking around the bed through the killer and then going back towards the killer to be knocked to the floor and then shot between the eyes. Most likely the shot between her eyes was delivered after Nevill died in the kitchen.  She was lying on the floor but the killer wasn't positive she was dead so wanted to make sure.

[lookout]

Nevill and June were both in the master bedroom when it started.  4 bullets were used on Nevill and at least 6 on June in the initial incident.  1 bullet grazed Neivll and remained in the room.  The other 3 were recovered from his body. 

It is hard to accept June walking around the bed through the killer and then going back towards the killer to be knocked to the floor and then shot between the eyes. Most likely the shot between her eyes was delivered after Nevill died in the kitchen.  She was lying on the floor but the killer wasn't positive she was dead so wanted to make sure.

How do you know ??

[scipio_usmc]

How do you know ??

Because a bullet that grazed Nevill and 4 casings associated with the 4 shots to the left profile of his body were found in the bedroom.  The gun would have been empty after these shots and those to June were fired which explains why things then progressed to the Kitchen and there was a struggle.  Either the killer ran to the kitchen to reload with Nevill chasing or Nevill ran to the kitchen to arm hiself or the like and the killer gave chase and in the kitchen the killer had to beat Nevill unconscious to be able to reload in peace then fired the 4 shots to Nevill's head.

[lookout]

 Neville could well have been" smacked" on his way downstairs rendering him disabled as he reached the kitchen.

[scipio_usmc]

Neville could well have been" smacked" on his way downstairs rendering him disabled as he reached the kitchen.

If his head were cracked somewhere other than the kitchen he would have been found there instead of the kitchen and there would not have been a struggle in the kitchen.  The struggle happened in the kitchen, that is where he was knocked unconscious, that is where the rifle stock broke and that is where he was shot to death with the 4 shots to his head.

[lookout]

If his head were cracked somewhere other than the kitchen he would have been found there instead of the kitchen and there would not have been a struggle in the kitchen.  The struggle happened in the kitchen, that is where he was knocked unconscious, that is where the rifle stock broke and that is where he was shot to death with the 4 shots to his head.

The stock could have weakened on the way downstairs for it to have come asunder altogether for the final blow in the kitchen. It had hit a wall or the Aga to have broken like it did,by holding the muzzle end leaving the stock as a heavy weapon. That wouldn't have just broken by hitting someone around the skull ?   

[scipio_usmc]

The stock could have weakened on the way downstairs for it to have come asunder altogether for the final blow in the kitchen. It had hit a wall or the Aga to have broken like it did,by holding the muzzle end leaving the stock as a heavy weapon. That wouldn't have just broken by hitting someone around the skull ?   

The stock broke by the back of the stock bashed against something hard, not the sides striking anything.  It was being used to batter Nevill. The cracks in the stock and the nature of how it sheered off reveals the motion.  The side would have cracked instead if the side had been hit.

If he was beaten in the hall with it then the fight would have been there instead of in the kitchen.  There are only 2 possibilities of why things ended up in the kitchen:

1) the killer went there to reload the weapon and before the killer could do so Nevill caught up to the killer and the fight ensued. 

2) Nevill went to the kitchen to try to arm himself and the killer at first let him go choosing to make sure June was dead and then caught up with Nevill in the kitchen.  Nevill could not move overly fast he was bumping against the walls.  If the killer were chasing him right away then the killer would have caught up and struggle would have been in the hall instead of the kitchen and then the killer would have shot him there.   There were no signs of a struggle in the hall just the kitchen.

[mike tesko]

Because a bullet that grazed Nevill and 4 casings associated with the 4 shots to the left profile of his body were found in the bedroom.  The gun would have been empty after these shots and those to June were fired which explains why things then progressed to the Kitchen and there was a struggle.  Either the killer ran to the kitchen to reload with Nevill chasing or Nevill ran to the kitchen to arm hiself or the like and the killer gave chase and in the kitchen the killer had to beat Nevill unconscious to be able to reload in peace then fired the 4 shots to Nevill's head.

Seven bullets fired, producing 8 bullet wounds (Ralph Bamber), all seven bullets recovered from inside his body.

Seven bullets fired, producing 7 bullet wounds (June Bamber), four bullets recovered from her body, three loose bullets recovered from the main bedroom.

One loose bullet, recovered from the main bedroom.

Two bullets fired, producing two bullet wounds (Sheila Caffell), two bullets recovered from her body.

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12 cartridge cases recovered from the main bedroom, producing 13 bullets, linked to same bedroom, do not add up, something is very wrong with your calculation:-

Lets go through the known facts, of who got shot in that bedroom according to you...

June Bamber, she got shot 7 times, which must be linked to 7 of the 12 recovered cartridge cases found in the main bedroom, leaving 5 cartridge cases to still be accounted for - three bullets recovered from Ralphs body, all supposedly fired into his body whilst he was present inside that bedroom, so this takes up another three of the five cartridge cases, leaving two cartridge cases to be accounted for. All appears well up to this point, but then things start to take a turn for the worst, because we still have 1 loose bullet recovered from the bedroom, and two shots into Sheila to deal with, producing a total of three bullets requiring three cartridge cases to be matched to, but where only two exist. Now, one of the two remaining cartridge cases must relate to the loose bullet discovered in that bedroom, and this leaves just one cartridge case against which to match to two shots into Sheila's neck, but only one of these shots can be accounted for by the solitary cartridge case remaining to be accounted for in that bedroom...

We are left with, one bullet fired into Sheila's neck, without a corresponding bullet case found in that bedroom...

The only reasonable conclusion one can arrive at, is that one of the two shots fired into Sheila's neck, was inflicted in another part of the farmhouse...

Do you not agree...