Author Topic: The killlers  (Read 24140 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #555 on: April 04, 2015, 08:43:PM »
Alias that is a strange one why would the killer place a towel and cushion in such a manner does not make sense at all. ???

just a thought maybe the cushions and towel were on the floor before Ralph was in that position dripping blood.  Perhaps Sheila had washed her hair and sat infront of the aga drying her hair.  It is possible :(

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #556 on: April 04, 2015, 08:56:PM »
Yes, not an easy crime scene, if there is such a thing.

I have seen some gruesome crime scenes and this doesn't really compare I think that when you see a decapitated head they are the most sickening.

In any event, WHF seems to have had a hodgepodge of crap all over not a show kitchen by any measure. Even the plates are mismatched.  My mother, grandmothers or wife would never mix and match different patterns like that. We have 48 (24 dinner size and 24 salad size) plates that match to make sure that when there are a large amount of guests that all get the same plate. It is blasphemy to even consider mixing.  The exception being plain white bowls that are used for soup, cereal or side dishes.  But that is why they have no pattern and are plain.

It looks like the table was set for breakfast the night before, my paternal grandmother used to do that. I never saw anyone leave out an empty butter dish though, I guess they lacked room in the fridge for it. We always keep the butter dishes in the fridge with butter already in them.

The sheer amount of stuff around shows it was a well used kitchen not one that was kept in perfect order.  The buckets are against the wall so out of the way so they were not harming anyone and wouldn't impact food preparation which obviously would be done on the other side of the kitchen.  There isn't really much food prep space so I would expect the table to be used but that seems not to be the case I guess the pantry was used for that.

Since the housekeeper knew that in the past Sheila had left her underwear soaking in the kitchen that means June didn't move it from the kitchen and that the housekeeper found it there and presumed that since it was Sheila's underwear and she knew June to leave soaking laundry in the scullery that it was Sheila who left it in the kitchen to soak. 

The clothing was left there either Monday evening or sometime Tuesday because it wasn't there when the housekeeper left. That would be logical since it would either be Monday evening when the boy's would change out of dirty clothing  or sometime Tuesday.  Sometime Tuesday they went shopping and presumably that is when Sheila bought tampons.

None of this supports the suggestion that she was up very late and decided at that point to soak her panties and her son's dirty pants.  If she planned to commit murder suicide then soaking the clothes  would not make any sense because someone who decided to kill her sons or had just killed them would not need the boys' pants so would not care about the stain and thus would not bother to wash them nor would bother to wash her own panties if she planned to kill herself because likewise she would have no use for them anymore so would not care if they got permanently stained.

The only logical conclusion is the clothing was placed to soak by Sheila at a point in time when murder and suicide were not contemplated.


 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #557 on: April 04, 2015, 09:00:PM »
It is indeed.

Does anyone know who placed the pillows and towel on the floor? The killer? Why?  :)

For all we know the kids were sitting on them and thus they were there before the murders.

One reason for the killer to place them there after would be to keep the blood in an isolated location because of the floor fills with blood the killer could step in it, leave shoe prints and be royally screwed. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jane

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #558 on: April 04, 2015, 09:34:PM »
I have seen some gruesome crime scenes and this doesn't really compare I think that when you see a decapitated head they are the most sickening.

In any event, WHF seems to have had a hodgepodge of crap all over not a show kitchen by any measure. Even the plates are mismatched.  My mother, grandmothers or wife would never mix and match different patterns like that. We have 48 (24 dinner size and 24 salad size) plates that match to make sure that when there are a large amount of guests that all get the same plate. It is blasphemy to even consider mixing.  The exception being plain white bowls that are used for soup, cereal or side dishes.  But that is why they have no pattern and are plain.

It looks like the table was set for breakfast the night before, my paternal grandmother used to do that. I never saw anyone leave out an empty butter dish though, I guess they lacked room in the fridge for it. We always keep the butter dishes in the fridge with butter already in them.

The sheer amount of stuff around shows it was a well used kitchen not one that was kept in perfect order.  The buckets are against the wall so out of the way so they were not harming anyone and wouldn't impact food preparation which obviously would be done on the other side of the kitchen.  There isn't really much food prep space so I would expect the table to be used but that seems not to be the case I guess the pantry was used for that.

Since the housekeeper knew that in the past Sheila had left her underwear soaking in the kitchen that means June didn't move it from the kitchen and that the housekeeper found it there and presumed that since it was Sheila's underwear and she knew June to leave soaking laundry in the scullery that it was Sheila who left it in the kitchen to soak. 

The clothing was left there either Monday evening or sometime Tuesday because it wasn't there when the housekeeper left. That would be logical since it would either be Monday evening when the boy's would change out of dirty clothing  or sometime Tuesday.  Sometime Tuesday they went shopping and presumably that is when Sheila bought tampons.

None of this supports the suggestion that she was up very late and decided at that point to soak her panties and her son's dirty pants.  If she planned to commit murder suicide then soaking the clothes  would not make any sense because someone who decided to kill her sons or had just killed them would not need the boys' pants so would not care about the stain and thus would not bother to wash them nor would bother to wash her own panties if she planned to kill herself because likewise she would have no use for them anymore so would not care if they got permanently stained.

The only logical conclusion is the clothing was placed to soak by Sheila at a point in time when murder and suicide were not contemplated.


 



Scipio, you must understand that there is very much an upstairs/downstairs life in the way the county set live. The crockery and cutlery in the kitchens are a mix of odd pieces from once good sets and pieces bought at local sales OR the near by cheap shops. None of it will ever get near the dining room where Spode and Royal Crown Derby have pride of place.

I believe that there is far more formality in American kitchens than there is in English country kitchens. However, no dining room guest will ever have to suffer the ignominy of odd crockery although our kitchens sometimes are free for alls.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #559 on: April 04, 2015, 10:26:PM »
You're also forgetting Sheila was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder(according to the wikipedia article-Sheila mental health section) and there is very little order and method in their behaviour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders

Offline Jane

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #560 on: April 04, 2015, 10:36:PM »
You're also forgetting Sheila was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder(according to the wikipedia article-Sheila mental health section) and there is very little order and method in their behaviour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders



It sounds as if you're suggesting that whilst it may be quite illogical to us, in HER disorganized state, although she may have been contemplating murder/suicide, it may have seemed perfectly logical to her to soak soiled clothes and leave everything in apple pie order.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #561 on: April 04, 2015, 11:03:PM »


It sounds as if you're suggesting that whilst it may be quite illogical to us, in HER disorganized state, although she may have been contemplating murder/suicide, it may have seemed perfectly logical to her to soak soiled clothes and leave everything in apple pie order.
Yes April,just as I was wondering where to start on your thread about going back to the beginning..I had so many thoughts running through my head I went to the wikipedia article on the White House Farm murders but still can't put an opening paragraph together.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #562 on: April 05, 2015, 04:35:AM »
You're also forgetting Sheila was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder(according to the wikipedia article-Sheila mental health section) and there is very little order and method in their behaviour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_Farm_murders

She was diagnosed with paranoid Schizophrenia not Hebephrenia.  Her problem was having delusions and hallucinations but it was under control as a result of her medication.

A paranoid schizophrenic doesn't decide to commit murder suicide, kill everyone then suddenly in the middle of doing so forget about it go do the laundry then remember again and decide to commit suicide.  They do things for a reason be it hallucinations or delusions.  Obviously someone who is having a delusion that they are being kept hostage by their family so kill their family is doing wrong but to them it makes sense and is appropriate.  In some cases we never figure out what delusions or hallucinations they were having that lead to things.

Murder-suicide by Schizophrenics is rare, a tiny percentage of those who commit murder suicide have Schizophrenia.  Those rare cases where it happens it is usually a case of planned murders and then suicide resulting later that was unplanned.  That is the case of many murder suicides though, many are to avoid capture.  Those murder suicides that are actually planned as murder suicides from the outset are mostly domestic situations.  Otherwise killing dependents because having to take care of the dependents gives them something to live for so getting rid of the dependents enables them to kill themselves without feeling like they are abandoning their loved one.

Schizophrenics either kill themselves or wind up killing others who are seen as a threat in some way because of delusions or hallucinations.  Murder suicide doesn't really fit in so is not seen much. 

Sheila killing her sons then herself would fit known paradigms much better than also killing her parents. Jeremy was hoping no one would look at the issue in too much depth though a nutter is a nutter to him.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Online nugnug

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #563 on: April 05, 2015, 11:44:AM »
skip do anything about the medication she was taking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haloperidol

Offline Jane

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #564 on: April 05, 2015, 12:05:PM »
Yes April,just as I was wondering where to start on your thread about going back to the beginning..I had so many thoughts running through my head I went to the wikipedia article on the White House Farm murders but still can't put an opening paragraph together.


STEVE!!! Stop teasing and get your head together. Even if I don't always agree with them, your posted posts are SO much more interesting than your UNposted posts.

Offline Reader

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #565 on: April 06, 2015, 10:41:PM »
Deviant is due out in a few months apparently. It will be interesting to watch behaviours following it's release.
To clarify, Paul Harrison's book is apparently to be titled "Deviant: Jeremy Bamber and the White House Farm Murders", and is scheduled to be on sale from 18th July 2015.

Publisher: Vertical Editions
ISBN: 9781904091929
Format: hardback, 192 pages

One can order it at a reduced price of £12.52 here, or perhaps get it for even less by becoming a new customer of a certain bookseller.

I wonder how many pages it was originally intended to be.

guest154

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #566 on: April 06, 2015, 10:44:PM »
I didnt realise "Deviant: Jeremy Bamber and the White House Farm Murders" was PH's book..... But yeah, Deviant is due out on July 18th.

Offline Reader

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #567 on: April 06, 2015, 11:08:PM »
Given that PH has been working on this book for about 10 years, you'd think he might have come up with a better title... such as "Dead Bodies Don't Move".

guest154

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #568 on: April 06, 2015, 11:11:PM »
Given that PH has been working on this book for about 10 years, you'd think he might have come up with a better title... such as "Dead Bodies Don't Move".

Will you be buying it, Reader?

Offline Patti

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #569 on: April 06, 2015, 11:21:PM »
To clarify, Paul Harrison's book is apparently to be titled "Deviant: Jeremy Bamber and the White House Farm Murders", and is scheduled to be on sale from 18th July 2015.

Publisher: Vertical Editions
ISBN: 9781904091929
Format: hardback, 192 pages

One can order it at a reduced price of £12.52 here, or perhaps get it for even less by becoming a new customer of a certain bookseller.

I wonder how many pages it was originally intended to be.

Thank you for sharing this Reader. 192 pages. How do you know there were more pages?   ;D