Author Topic: The killlers  (Read 24127 times)

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Offline nugnug

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #420 on: April 01, 2015, 03:08:PM »
the appeal did mention the kitchen window they just dident say what your saying.

one of the grounds for appeal was non disclourser about barlows notebook so yes the appeal court did cover it.

the appeal court said the windows could be closed from the outside but not locked.

so it rather strange they said that if what your  saying is true.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 03:12:PM by nugnug »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #421 on: April 01, 2015, 03:24:PM »
the appeal did mention the kitchen window they just dident say what your saying.

The Window portion of the appeal had 3 issues:

1) "Police Sergeant Golding gave evidence that at 2.30 p.m. on 7 August he commenced to secure the ground floor and found all windows to be secure and fastened with the exception of two windows. One was in the ground floor bathroom, which was in a closed position with the catch open. He secured the window by closing the latch. The other was a transom window, which formed part of a casement type window in the kitchen. The transom window was open approximately halfway. He secured the window.

In contrast with Sergeant Golding, DCI Jones made a statement dated 7 October 1985 in which he reported that he had attended at the farm at approximately 9.15 a.m. on 7 August and he had proceeded to check every room on the ground floor of the house and found that on the ground floor all the windows in the house were secure and locked except the window to the dairy. That statement was read to the Jury as part of the Defence case.

Complaint is made that part of Mr Ainsley's Final Report was not disclosed to the Defence in which he wrote:

"There was no apparent entry to or exit from the house and D.Chief Inspector Jones did in fact examine the inside of all ground floor windows and noted that they were all shut and secured on their latches. The scene was photographed. It seems however that after the inspection of D.Chief Jones some person had partially opened the transom window in the kitchen and also opened the catch on the ground floor bathroom windows. I have been unable to discover the person responsible but there was comment made of the smell in the kitchen and the flies gathering. There is no reason to believe that the bathroom window was opened, but following the departure of the Scene of Crime officer, the witness Police Sergeant Golding secured the windows mentioned."

We reject the complaint that this portion of the police report should have been disclosed. It is no more than a commentary on evidence, which had been reduced to statement form and served upon the Defence. The conflict between the two versions was there to be seen on the face of the statements (Golding p. 102) and (Jones p.987/8). This point was plainly not lost on the Defence who read the statement of Jones as part of their case and commented upon the conflict in their closing speech."

2) The second ground of complaint is that whilst the Defence were made fully aware that Scene of Crime officers carried out a thorough examination of the scene on the 8 and 9 September, the terms of reference for the search of the scene were not disclosed to them and in particular they were not told that specific attention was paid to entry and exit marks at White House Farm. The examination had not revealed any scratch marks on the bathroom window. Our attention was drawn to a case diary kept by Mr Ainsley in which was recorded under 8 September:

"Scenes of Crime to visit 9 Head Street under the command of DI Cook and White House Farm under the command of DCI Wright and to carry out a full, thorough Scene of Crime examination, fingerprints and scientific in particular in relation to entry and exit marks at White House Farm".

The examination of the Farm for entry and exit marks became particularly significant. On the 1 October 1985 Brian Elliott a forensic scientist examined the window catch and surrounding area of the downstairs bathroom/toilet sash window. He noticed that the brass catch had been scratched on the inner edge and that there was damage to the white paintwork on the adjacent faces of the top of the bottom sash and the bottom of the top sash. The white paint on the outside of the window including the outer face of the top of the bottom sash appeared clean and fresh.

He concluded that the damage to the sash window and catch was consistent with a thin blade having been inserted between the closely fitting sashes of the window in an effort to force the catch open. Furthermore this attack occurred after the outside of the window had last been painted. There was evidence that the windows had been painted in June and July.

It was the prosecution case that the marks on the paintwork had been made by the appellant when entering the Farm during the late evening or early hours of the 6 or 7 August in order to commit the murders.

It was the defence case, revealed for the first time at trial, that the appellant made those marks following his release after Police interview on or about 16 September upon his return from London having forgotten his keys. It was of potential advantage to the defence to demonstrate that the window in question was examined on the 8, 9, or 10 September and that at that time no marks were found on the window.

There is no doubt that the prosecution did disclose the fact that a scene of crime examination did take place at White House Farm on September 8 and 9. The defence were served with statements of DS Finch, DS Lunn and DC King. A fingerprint examination took place. Carpet fibres were taken and the side lounge window was photographed and swabbed and paint samples were taken from the side lounge window. Whilst none of their statements contain any negative observations or findings, it must have been obvious to the defence team that a scene of crime investigation into points of entry and exit was in fact taking place. We agree with the submission that in the circumstances of this case negative findings might usefully have appeared in these statements although we are satisfied that no impropriety occurred. Since the prosecution knew nothing of the use said to have been made of this window by the appellant following his release from custody, they cannot have appreciated the potential importance of this evidence to the defence. We are equally satisfied that this very experienced defence team must have known by way of deduction what the general purpose of the visits were on the 8 and 9 September. However as Mr Temple concedes the time certainly came when the specific purpose of these visits became disclosable and it was so prior to trial."

3) Further complaint is made that the prosecution failed to disclose the fact that DC Barlow examined the windows of White House Farm on 22 August 1985 and noted nothing of significance in relation to the bathroom window. His statement of 21 November 1985 indicates that:

"on Thursday the 22nd of August I was on duty when I went to White House Farm. There I made an examination of the kitchen window" There is no reference in the statement to the bathroom window.

In notes written for the Essex Review (after trial) he wrote: "22/8/85 first opportunity to go to White House Farm. Examined all the windows. Most are sash type and could be opened from outside but could not be closed" He makes no suggestion of finding any entry mark associated with the bathroom window."

--------------

The issue of the kitchen window being able to be locked from the outside was totally unrelated to the 3 issues complained about by the defense. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #422 on: April 01, 2015, 03:34:PM »
There is also this comment

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".

He makes no mention of asking her to 'close and secure the window' just that he asked he to pay solicitor bills.
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #423 on: April 01, 2015, 04:07:PM »
There is also this comment

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window. I left a note on B.Wilsons desk to ask her to pay my solicitors bills".

He makes no mention of asking her to 'close and secure the window' just that he asked he to pay solicitor bills.

If Jeremy had been smart and never admitted he could get in through the windows and had not allowed police to see him enter through the bathroom window then he could have argued that he did not know how to unlock the windows so that he could enter through them.

But the prosecution would still be making the argument that they figured out it could be done, that Julie among others said he knew about the windows and there was even a mark on the bathroom window latch indicating it had been "picked". 

They used his other entries to say that the marks could have been made at a time different than the time of the murders.  The marks really don't matter if you admit you could unlock the window and did so in the past. All that matters is Jeremy knowing he could use the window.  The defense tried to minimize the damage as best they could and tried to use it to refute the significance of the mark on the latch but the damage was done simply by admitting he knew how to unlock the window and enter through it and admitting he had done so in the past.

Instead of having to rely on Julie and the family to establish he knew how to unlock the window he simply ended up admitting the point. A trial is to assess the facts in dispute.  A jury looks at the evidence and assesses the facts in dispute and is to decide what the truth is.  When facts are not in dispute the jury doesn't have to make a decision the decision is provided to them.  On this issue the admission resulted in it being an undisputed fact Jeremy knew how to unlock the window to enter.  Everything else like the marks is just window dressing (pun intended).



Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #424 on: April 01, 2015, 04:22:PM »
If Jeremy had been smart and never admitted he could get in through the windows and had not allowed police to see him enter through the bathroom window then he could have argued that he did not know how to unlock the windows so that he could enter through them.

But the prosecution would still be making the argument that they figured out it could be done, that Julie among others said he knew about the windows and there was even a mark on the bathroom window latch indicating it had been "picked". 

They used his other entries to say that the marks could have been made at a time different than the time of the murders.  The marks really don't matter if you admit you could unlock the window and did so in the past. All that matters is Jeremy knowing he could use the window.  The defense tried to minimize the damage as best they could and tried to use it to refute the significance of the mark on the latch but the damage was done simply by admitting he knew how to unlock the window and enter through it and admitting he had done so in the past.

Instead of having to rely on Julie and the family to establish he knew how to unlock the window he simply ended up admitting the point. A trial is to assess the facts in dispute.  A jury looks at the evidence and assesses the facts in dispute and is to decide what the truth is.  When facts are not in dispute the jury doesn't have to make a decision the decision is provided to them.  On this issue the admission resulted in it being an undisputed fact Jeremy knew how to unlock the window to enter.  Everything else like the marks is just window dressing (pun intended).

I agree, he can't help giving out clues - he probably thought "they will believe me because a guilty man wouldn't admit to knowing how to get in".  A double bluff which didn't pay off!
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Offline Stephanie

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #425 on: April 01, 2015, 04:30:PM »
I agree, he can't help giving out clues - he probably thought "they will believe me because a guilty man wouldn't admit to knowing how to get in".  A double bluff which didn't pay off!

So it would seem  :o
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Offline lebaleb

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #426 on: April 01, 2015, 06:42:PM »
"He probably thought..." is pure speculation. It is possible that he may have thought... would be more accurate as we have no idea what he thought. He may have been simply telling the truth. Having been locked out of my own house I know the only possible way in, as all the windows have bars. I also know how to get into my parents house. It's not unusual to know these things.

Offline lookout

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #427 on: April 01, 2015, 06:42:PM »
Did he have to leave a note ? No.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #428 on: April 01, 2015, 07:05:PM »
"He probably thought..." is pure speculation. It is possible that he may have thought... would be more accurate as we have no idea what he thought. He may have been simply telling the truth. Having been locked out of my own house I know the only possible way in, as all the windows have bars. I also know how to get into my parents house. It's not unusual to know these things.

As is your wild suggestion about the silencer! You don't have the monopoly on speculation  ::)
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #429 on: April 01, 2015, 07:13:PM »
"He probably thought..." is pure speculation. It is possible that he may have thought... would be more accurate as we have no idea what he thought. He may have been simply telling the truth. Having been locked out of my own house I know the only possible way in, as all the windows have bars. I also know how to get into my parents house. It's not unusual to know these things.

We know that he knew how to unlock the windows from outside and to climb through them because he admitted to it.  That ends the ability to say he could not have gotten in on the night of the murders through the windows.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #430 on: April 01, 2015, 07:48:PM »
We know that he knew how to unlock the windows from outside and to climb through them because he admitted to it.  That ends the ability to say he could not have gotten in on the night of the murders through the windows.

I don't think anyone has ever said that? He said he and other younger members of the family used to do that when they had been out late.

What he said was that no windows could be locked from the outside

Offline Adam

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #431 on: April 01, 2015, 07:58:PM »
I don't think anyone has ever said that? He said he and other younger members of the family used to do that when they had been out late.

What he said was that no windows could be locked from the outside

Perhaps he lied. Julie knew he could bang it shut.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 08:07:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Caroline

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #432 on: April 01, 2015, 08:15:PM »
I don't think anyone has ever said that? He said he and other younger members of the family used to do that when they had been out late.

What he said was that no windows could be locked from the outside

From 2002 Appeal doc

282. We must of course consider whether the combination of failing to disclose in the statements of DS Finch, DS Lunn, and DC King the fact that an examination for entry and exit marks had been carried out and the further failure in DC Barlow's statement to disclose that he had examined all the windows has adversely affected the safety of the convictions.

283. In interview the following passage appeared:

"Appellant: There are many ways to get into the house i.e. windows"

Question: "What do you mean, insecure windows?

Appellant: "Insecure windows, secure windows, it makes no difference".

284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Question: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".


285. Having been interviewed he was released on bail and thereafter asserts that within a day or two he went to the White House Farm and climbed in through the very downstairs toilet window and thereby provided an explanation for the marks on the window frame. This resulted in his being asked in evidence the very pertinent question whether it was unwise to go back within 2 days of being questioned about climbing in and out of the downstairs toilet window to and leave marks on that very same window in order to get into and out of the house.

286. The prosecution had established conclusively and without challenge the appellant's ability to enter and leave the White House Farm when it was apparently secure from his own answers. Julie Mugford confirmed the fact. The Crown did not have the burden of proving by which window and by which mechanism the entry was made. The Crown proved capacity both to enter and leave. There was no issue. As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):

"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"

287. The only way in which the window evidence could have been of importance in the jury's decision is if despite other evidence pointing to the appellant as the killer, they might have been prevented from reaching that conclusion by doubting that he could have got in and out on the night in question with the windows being found next day in the condition in which they were found. On the appellant's own admissions, no such doubt could arise.

288. It follows that any failure to disclose earlier examination of windows cannot affect the safety of this conviction.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #433 on: April 01, 2015, 08:17:PM »
From 2002 Appeal doc

282. We must of course consider whether the combination of failing to disclose in the statements of DS Finch, DS Lunn, and DC King the fact that an examination for entry and exit marks had been carried out and the further failure in DC Barlow's statement to disclose that he had examined all the windows has adversely affected the safety of the convictions.

283. In interview the following passage appeared:

"Appellant: There are many ways to get into the house i.e. windows"

Question: "What do you mean, insecure windows?

Appellant: "Insecure windows, secure windows, it makes no difference".

284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Question: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window".


285. Having been interviewed he was released on bail and thereafter asserts that within a day or two he went to the White House Farm and climbed in through the very downstairs toilet window and thereby provided an explanation for the marks on the window frame. This resulted in his being asked in evidence the very pertinent question whether it was unwise to go back within 2 days of being questioned about climbing in and out of the downstairs toilet window to and leave marks on that very same window in order to get into and out of the house.

286. The prosecution had established conclusively and without challenge the appellant's ability to enter and leave the White House Farm when it was apparently secure from his own answers. Julie Mugford confirmed the fact. The Crown did not have the burden of proving by which window and by which mechanism the entry was made. The Crown proved capacity both to enter and leave. There was no issue. As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):

"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"

287. The only way in which the window evidence could have been of importance in the jury's decision is if despite other evidence pointing to the appellant as the killer, they might have been prevented from reaching that conclusion by doubting that he could have got in and out on the night in question with the windows being found next day in the condition in which they were found. On the appellant's own admissions, no such doubt could arise.

288. It follows that any failure to disclose earlier examination of windows cannot affect the safety of this conviction.

If someone was cynical, they might view the above as an attempt to cover his tracks  ;)
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The killlers
« Reply #434 on: April 01, 2015, 08:27:PM »
I don't think anyone has ever said that? He said he and other younger members of the family used to do that when they had been out late.

What he said was that no windows could be locked from the outside


Getting in is the much more significant issue since the bathroom window might not have been locked and the bedroom window was open so potentially a ladder could have been used.  When were police wanted to know if there was any way in he told them no he failed to disclose the window being a means of entrance until after he was witnessed entering through the window.

At any rate, his family knew about the kitchen window being able to be locked from the outside because the victims told them so clearly Jeremy knew as well and Julie stated Jeremy told her he knew about it.  Their testimony is far more credible than Jeremy's denials- to someone objective anyway which rules you out.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry