Author Topic: The killlers  (Read 24136 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
Re: The killlers
« Reply #360 on: March 31, 2015, 04:20:PM »
He will be successful in his quest.

His not Lancelot - just Liesalot! (soz ;))
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Stephanie

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7614
  • The facts leading to the Simon Hall confession
Re: The killlers
« Reply #361 on: March 31, 2015, 04:37:PM »
His not Lancelot - just Liesalot! (soz ;))

Caroline  ;D ;D  ;D
“The only people who are mad at you for telling the truth are those people who are living a lie. Keep telling the truth"

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: The killlers
« Reply #362 on: March 31, 2015, 04:39:PM »
Of course it is. Once Jeremy admitted he could get in, he left the defence with no avenue. They could peruse it but would do themselves more damage. They don't have to PROVE how he got out, just show that it was possible and they did that.

But as you said he could have been in the house all the time? So the getting in was not the problem . He had to set the scene to show it was only Sheila by LOCKING the window from the outside.

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: The killlers
« Reply #363 on: March 31, 2015, 04:43:PM »
Hi Scip

I think you are missing my point of what the jury did not know at the time of trial, regarding the forensic evidence of the windows.  The whole saga of the windows was one the grounds for the 2002 appeal. It was classed as new evidence.

The 2002 appeal didn't involve any new evidence concerning the kitchen window.  It concerned alleged new evidence concerning the bathroom window.

The defense claimed that Barlow's statements made prior to trial didn't reveal he had looked at any windows  on 8/22/85 other than the kitchen window which he found could be locked from the outside. 

Subsequent to the trial (during the course of the COLP investigation) Barlow wrote in a statement that he looked at all the windows not just the kitchen window and noted the other windows were mostly sash type windows that could be unlocked from the outside but not locked.

The defense argued that had they been on notice that he looked at all the windows on that date then they would have argued that since he failed to note seeing any marks on the bathroom window that they would have questioned him about such.

The Court held that whether the marks were there before or after the murders makes no difference, the defendant admitted that he unlocked that window among other prior to the murders to enter the house and thus the marks had no significant impact on the issue.  All that matters was whether he could get in there was no need to establish precisely which door or window he used to enter.

"The prosecution had established conclusively and without challenge the appellant's ability to enter and leave the White House Farm when it was apparently secure from his own answers. Julie Mugford confirmed the fact. The Crown did not have the burden of proving by which window and by which mechanism the entry was made. The Crown proved capacity both to enter and leave. There was no issue. As the trial Judge said (at page 10E):

"… how he got there and out again whether by the kitchen window or any other means, though of interest, cannot affect the outcome of the case"

The only way in which the window evidence could have been of importance in the jury's decision is if despite other evidence pointing to the appellant as the killer, they might have been prevented from reaching that conclusion by doubting that he could have got in and out on the night in question with the windows being found next day in the condition in which they were found. On the appellant's own admissions, no such doubt could arise.

It follows that any failure to disclose earlier examination of windows cannot affect the safety of this conviction."

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
Re: The killlers
« Reply #364 on: March 31, 2015, 04:57:PM »
But as you said he could have been in the house all the time? So the getting in was not the problem . He had to set the scene to show it was only Sheila by LOCKING the window from the outside.

The fact that the defence didn't push the point about the locking of the window from the outside doesn't mean that Barlow hadn't witnessed it, it just means they didn't want to pursue it. Probably because they knew it would go no where and Barlow could testify to what he had seen.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: The killlers
« Reply #365 on: March 31, 2015, 05:07:PM »
I'm still waiting for Jan to provide the basis for claiming:

Because when Barlow was asked in court did he see the window locked from the outside - he did not answer yes. He answered he saw nothing unusual about the window.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

guest154

  • Guest
Re: The killlers
« Reply #366 on: March 31, 2015, 05:09:PM »
I'm still waiting for Jan to provide the basis for claiming:

I asked her too and her answer is on the other page. "It's on the site". Not sure what that means to be honest.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: The killlers
« Reply #367 on: March 31, 2015, 05:14:PM »
I asked her too and her answer is on the other page. "It's on the site". Not sure what that means to be honest.

it means I saw the testimony on this site - but I am struggling to find it. I will keep trying .

He was asked specifically if he went with the family and saw the window being Locked from the outside.

guest154

  • Guest
Re: The killlers
« Reply #368 on: March 31, 2015, 05:19:PM »
it means I saw the testimony on this site - but I am struggling to find it. I will keep trying .

He was asked specifically if he went with the family and saw the window being Locked from the outside.

Oh, I've seen very little trial testimony, especially on this site. His comments are quite clear in the screen shot that has been posted. It seems like supporters keep changing the goal posts - at first they claimed the windows hadn't been checked - when Scip finds in the Dickinson report that they actually HAD been the question is now was this testified to at trial.  :-\ Seems a bit of a strange position to take to be honest.

Offline Jan

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 10318
Re: The killlers
« Reply #369 on: March 31, 2015, 05:28:PM »
Oh, I've seen very little trial testimony, especially on this site. His comments are quite clear in the screen shot that has been posted. It seems like supporters keep changing the goal posts - at first they claimed the windows hadn't been checked - when Scip finds in the Dickinson report that they actually HAD been the question is now was this testified to at trial.  :-\ Seems a bit of a strange position to take to be honest.

I found the testimony from jones when he said he was present whilst the window was being tested and he never saw them try and lock it from the outside.

And you feel free to find it strange . I will find the testimony. I find it strange that the family were told very early on that the windows were secured/locked from the inside by the police and made it their mission to prove that was not true. And I found it strange that when asked outright in court the question appeared to be avoided - I am sure Barlow could have referred to his notes if he wanted to.


guest154

  • Guest
Re: The killlers
« Reply #370 on: March 31, 2015, 05:30:PM »
I found the testimony from jones when he said he was present whilst the window was being tested and he never saw them try and lock it from the outside.

And you feel free to find it strange . I will find the testimony. I find it strange that the family were told very early on that the windows were secured/locked from the inside by the police and made it their mission to prove that was not true. And I found it strange that when asked outright in court the question appeared to be avoided - I am sure Barlow could have referred to his notes if he wanted to.

Just for the record - if you say you've seen it. I do believe you have.

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: The killlers
« Reply #371 on: March 31, 2015, 05:33:PM »
it means I saw the testimony on this site - but I am struggling to find it. I will keep trying .

He was asked specifically if he went with the family and saw the window being Locked from the outside.

I think you are going by allegations made by people as opposed to seeing actual testimony because nothing I have read suggests Barlow ever testified in court let alone would he deny going there with the family in light of his statement saying he did and was able to see it lock from the outside.  To deny it would have been met with rigorous attack by the prosecutor in light of his statement saying otherwise.

What I have found is that many misrepresentations are taken as true by people who want to support Jeremy instead of treating allegations with caution and requiring proof.

This is what you posted in the past:

"Barlow did not say he saw the window lock from the outside - read his testimony and the 2002 appeal before you make rash statements."

The 2002 Appeal doesn't say anything about him testifying and doesn't say anything about him claiming the kitchen window could not be locked.  It notes he examined the kitchen window because of claims made by the family.  It didn't bother to detail his findings with respect to the kitchen window because such findings didn't matter for the appeal.  The appeal concerned his examination of the bathroom window. The on;y reason to mention the kitchen window was to provide background of why he went and to assess whether something sinister was going on in failing to mention the other windows in his statement.

If he had testified then they would have been discussing his testimony as well so the lack of discussion on it suggests he didn't testify at the trial about any windows- which means he probably didn't testify at all.

   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: The killlers
« Reply #372 on: March 31, 2015, 05:34:PM »
I believe whatever Jan has to say----------full stop.

guest154

  • Guest
Re: The killlers
« Reply #373 on: March 31, 2015, 05:36:PM »
I think you are going by allegations made by people as opposed to seeing actual testimony because nothing I have read suggests Barlow ever testified in court let alone would he deny going there with the family in light of his statement saying he did and was able to see it lock from the outside.  To deny it would have been met with rigorous attack by the prosecutor in light of his statement saying otherwise.

What I have found is that many misrepresentations are taken as true by people who want to support Jeremy instead of treating allegations with caution and requiring proof.

This is what you posted in the past:

"Barlow did not say he saw the window lock from the outside - read his testimony and the 2002 appeal before you make rash statements."

The 2002 Appeal doesn't say anything about him testifying and doesn't say anything about him claiming the kitchen window could not be locked.  It notes he examined the kitchen window because of claims made by the family.  It didn't bother to detail his findings with respect to the kitchen window because such findings didn't matter for the appeal.  The appeal concerned his examination of the bathroom window. The on;y reason to mention the kitchen window was to provide background of why he went and to assess whether something sinister was going on in failing to mention the other windows in his statement.

If he had testified then they would have been discussing his testimony as well so the lack of discussion on it suggests he didn't testify at the trial about any windows- which means he probably didn't testify at all.

 

No, I agree it isn't in the 2002 appeal.

Offline scipio_usmc

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9502
Re: The killlers
« Reply #374 on: March 31, 2015, 05:38:PM »
I found the testimony from jones when he said he was present whilst the window was being tested and he never saw them try and lock it from the outside.

And you feel free to find it strange . I will find the testimony. I find it strange that the family were told very early on that the windows were secured/locked from the inside by the police and made it their mission to prove that was not true. And I found it strange that when asked outright in court the question appeared to be avoided - I am sure Barlow could have referred to his notes if he wanted to.

Does it say he was there on 8/22 with Barlow when Barlow claims he tested the window? 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry