What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?

[Adam]

It's amazing that Jeremy's supporters say 'what evidence'. What do they think they are fire fighting every day ?

[lookout]

It's amazing that Jeremy's supporters say 'what evidence'. What do they think they are fire fighting every day ?

You'll say anything to avoid making that list of evidence,won't you ?

[Adam]

You'll say anything to avoid making that list of evidence,won't you ?

You've got me Lookout.

The courts, COA (twice) and CCRC have kept him in prison. On zero evidence.

[lookout]

You've got me Lookout.

The courts, COA (twice) and CCRC have kept him in prison. On zero evidence.

Yep---------------zero evidence exactly,you've got it in one.Now can we stop repeating " all the tons of evidence ".
If Jeremy had not burgled the caravan park,what then would EP have arrested Jeremy on ? 5 murders without the evidence to back it up ? Only with the skewed hearsay of the relatives and the dodgy testimony of his ex-girlfriend,and YOU think this was enough to sentence a man for the rest of his natural ?

[Steve_uk]

I will use arguments from the Kercher murder as an example of articulating a well reasoned case for believing in the innocence of a convicted person.

The physical evidence that actually relates to murder all points to Guede as the killer.  Guede’s had a history of burglary and his MO was to break into places through upper story windows and carry a knife with him.  An upper story window from the flat was broken from the outside and established at his trial as being his method of entry.  Guede was friends with the people who lived in the flat below.  Knox and her roommates only met Guede when they happened to be visiting the flat below the same time Guede visited.

Guede chose an evening to break in when he knew there was a vacation taking place and thus his friends would not be in the flat below.  He either assumed the girls would not be either or he potentially intended to rape not just steal.  There was DNA evidence that proved he had sex with her and his prints were found in her blood.  His claim is that Kercher invited him in and had consensual sex with him then he left and someone else must have broken in and killed her after he left.  Naturally this defense was scoffed at and he was convicted.

The police originally tried to blame Knox.  They decided she acted immaturely and must have been responsible.  She was questioned without an interpreter and harassed to try to get her to confess and told her to imagine how the murders occurred.  They showed her a test where she told her boss see you later and insisted her boss showed up.  She ended up telling them what they wanted to hear that her boss did it.  They prosecutor decided that her boss did it with her help though she never said such.  He made up the notion they were having a 3 some or rape fantasy.  When it was proven her boss had an alibi and the DNA didn’t match him the prosecutor simply swapped out the boss and stuck Knox’s boyfriend in his place though the police had no evidence that he had been there. The DNA didn’t match him either.

The DNA ended up matching Guede.  To try saving face the prosecutor decided to pretend Knox and her boyfriend were still responsible and that Guede helped them even though there was no evidence that such was the case.  Guede claimed Kercher let him in not Knox.  There was no evidence that Knox ever called Guede or even knew where he lived. How she supposedly got in contact with him to arrange to go rape her roommate was never established.  The whole thing was just made up by the prosecutor.   

After Guede’s conviction they told him they would take 10 years off his sentence if he  implicated Knox.  So after his conviction he changed his story slightly.  He still maintained Kercher let him in and that she had consensual sex with him but asserted while he was in the bathroom he heard Knox and her boyfriend come home and they murdered Kercher.  After they left he claimed he went out to try to see if she was ok and that was how he got her blood on his hands and feet.  In exchange for this they cut his sentence by 10 years.

Even though his account featured him visiting Kercher on his own and having consensual sex the prosecution argued Knox let him in to rape her and kill her.  No evidence was offered to support this contention.  The police swabbed the entire bathroom with single swabs instead of using a single swab for a single location.  In this manner they ensured they would pick up DNA from  different locations and mix it together.  They managed to naturally find Kercher’s DNA and Knox’s on the same swab.  All that proved is Knox’s DNA was in the bathroom not when it was deposited and her DNA would be expected in the bathroom since she used it. Thus the only DNA that the prosecution used to suggest Knox was there during the murders had no ability to prove it.

The prosecution had no evidence of any collusion between Guede and anyone else and no evidence anyone except Guede committed the murders.  Guede didn’t admit to any collusion after his conviction he simply changed his story from the murders happening after the left to claiming the murders happened while he was in the bathroom.

Objectively there was no case against Knox, the prosecution was embarrassed by murder being committee din a much different fashion than the prosecutor asserted by someone other than the prosecutor asserted.  Instead of moving on from the error and admitting it the prosecutor decided to punish the real killer but also Knox an h er boyfriend pretending they acted in concert with Guede though there was no evidence of such.

The Italian judicial system being the joke it is convicted Knox in part based on a confession that was ruled inadmissible because it was coerced.  Only in Italy can evidence be ruled inadmissible by the Court of Cassation and yet the evidence still used by the judges anyway.  They don’t have a jury system like the US and UK. They have 2 judges who decide guilt or innocence along with 6 laypeople who can be pushed around by the judges and all it takes is a plurality to convict.  In the US and UK a jury of peers decides guilt or innocence in major crimes.   

In Italy the appellate court essentially retries the case.  The cases below are so bad that the intermediate courts end up not deferring to the factual findings of the trial court and make their own.  An appellate court ripped the crap out of the convictions and exonerated Knox and her boyfriend.

The Court of Cassation is the highest court in Italy.  This court only has authority to rule on legal issues not factual ones.  The Court of Cassation was unable to find any legal errors but exceeded it’s own power and decided the factual findings of the intermediate court were wrong and ordered a new retrial.  The decision laid out what factual findings the court retrying the case should make to convict Knox.  The court retrying the case obeyed and found them guilty again even though the factual findings had no evidentiary basis.  For example even though no evidence was presented to establish collusion among Knox, her boyfriend and Guede or to establish she let Guede in the court decided she let Guede in.  The court found that Knox was mad that Kercher called her dirty so she decided to have Kercher raped and murdered and enlisted Guede and her boyfriend to do it. The court decided all 3 stabbed Kercher and that Knox delivered the fatal knife blow evne though the only evidence in the case related to such was Guede’s prints in Kercher’s blood.  The only blood evidence available to suggest who did the stabbing was Guede’s prints in her blood.

At the end of the day there is evidence that Guede committed the murders and nothing more.

This is how you articulate a belief of innocence and reason for holding such belief.

There is evidence against Knox and Sollecito,but you just care to ignore it.http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=319287&highlight=amanda+knox

[John]

That's why I asked,Maggie  I got no answer from John either,and he above EVERYONE should have given a list as long as your arm.

The evidence is there for all to read but in any event here are a few pointers since you obviously don't want to acknowledge that such evidence exists.

It was stated at Jeremy Bamber's trial that as a consequence of what occurred on the morning of the murders and following Jeremy Bamber's own evidence, an innocent Sheila renders Jeremy Bamber guilty by default.  It does not mean that he carried out the murders alone however or that he had help in other ways from another individual.


1. Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil.  In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.

2. Uncontaminated feet.  Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.

3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom.  During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments.  Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.

4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it.  Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it.  It wasn't.

5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator.  Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985.  Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen.  Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.

6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.

7. Two gunshots to her neck.  Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?

8. No marks or injuries following a fight.  Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill.  She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.

9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.

10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time. 

11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.

12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck.  The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her.  The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining.  Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.

13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.

14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken.  If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage.  There was none.


If you need any more do shout!

[John]

And here is a little reminder of the five innocents he slaughtered.

[lookout]

The evidence is there for all to read but in any event here are a few pointers since you obviously don't want to acknowledge that such evidence exists.

It was stated at Jeremy Bamber's trial that as a consequence of what occurred on the morning of the murders and following Jeremy Bamber's own evidence, an innocent Sheila renders Jeremy Bamber guilty by default.  It does not mean that he carried out the murders alone however or that he had help in other ways from another individual.


1. Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil.  In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.

2. Uncontaminated feet.  Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.

3. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom.  During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments.  Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.

4. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it.  Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it.  It wasn't.

5. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator.  Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985.  Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen.  Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.

6. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.

7. Two gunshots to her neck.  Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?

8. No marks or injuries following a fight.  Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill.  She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.

9. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.

10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time. 

11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.

12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck.  The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her.  The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining.  Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.

13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.

14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken.  If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage.  There was none.


If you need any more do shout!

I asked for concrete proof of  evidence supporting your claim of Jeremy's guilt.

[Jane]

I asked for concrete proof of  evidence supporting your claim of Jeremy's guilt.

Lookout, just out of interest, what, to you, WOULD constitute concrete proof of Jeremy's guilt?

[scipio_usmc]

There is evidence against Knox and Sollecito,but you just care to ignore it.http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=319287&highlight=amanda+knox

All you have pointed to is:

1) that very sensitive LCN DNA testing found a weak trace of Sollecito's DNA on a bra clasp that was found months later and could have been contaminated with such DNA at any time during those months and also could have been contaminated by poor handling practices of the lab and police.  There was no way for the government to prove beyond a reasonable doubt such DNA was deposited the night of the murders as a result of Sollecito helping Guede rape her.

2) That a trace of Kercher's DNA was supposedly found on a kitchen knife at Sollecito's.  That knife didn't match the wound on the victim and didn't match the bloody knife print that was made when the killer used the sheets to wipe off the murder weapon and thus left an impression of what the knife looked like.   Knox or Sollecito could have picked up the minute DNA at Knox's place at any time and subsequently transferred it while using the knife on food. There is nothing to establish this minute DNA was transferred as a result of being involved in the murders.  The appeal court said that improper lab practices could have resulted in the knife being contaminated with this DNA in the lab further discounted this evidence.

3) You point to the fact Knox's DNA was found int he bathroom.  I alreayd addressed this, they didn't simply swab Kercher's blood they swabbed Kercher's blood AND THEN swabbed all around the bathroom with the same swab to capture DNA that was in location other than mixed with her blood.  That prevents them from being able to argue anyone's DNA was mixed with the blood.  The APpeal court pointed out these deficiencies.

4) They bought and used cleaning supplies. That is not unusual.  Had they bought the supplies to clean up evidence then there would not have been all the evidence that was found.  They didn't wash away the blood evidence.  The suggestion they managed to wash away all their evidence but yet to not wash away any evidence that implicated Guede is absurd.  There would be no way to them to distinguish blood evidence that implicates him and themselves.  in one breath you say they cleaned up the place then you say her DNA was found in Kercher's blood.  Which is it did they clean up or not?  There is no proof  they cleaned up any evidence.  There was evidence all over the place.

Your supposed evidence doesn't prove anything and you have admitted yourself this:

"Of course for the Prosecution’s case of a sex game gone wrong they had to establish a link between Guede,Sollecito and Knox."

They failed to establish any link.  No evidence of the three exchanging calls, no evidence of them exchanging visits...that is why police initially tried to blame Knox's boss. They found evidence she was communicating with him and twisted to suggest that they were going to meet up because she said "see you later".  They found no evidence of any communication with Guede and only after they processed bloody fingerprints did they get Guede's name because his prints were on file and thus they got a match.

Even after Guede was rewarded with a 10 year reduction in his sentence in exchange for implicating Knox he still didn't provide any link and still denied the notion he was invited there by her.  He claimed that Knox showed up after he had sex with Kercher and while he was in the bathroom she murdered Kercher and then left.  He claimed he then went in to find her dead and touched her to see if she was dead and that was how he got her blood on him then he panicked, dressed and fled.

The state has no link at all between them.  There is no evidence Sollecito ever met Guede. Kercher and knox met him when he visited the same flat they were visiting but there is no evidence he interacted with them let alone shared phone numbers with either or made any kind of connection with either.  That is why the court found it ludicrous that Kercher would have invited him in to hang out and have sex like he claimed she did.   

Even if Knox and Sollecito had run into him on the street by chance that evening and Knox recognized Guede it is ludicrous she would invite him to come help rape and kill Kercher. You don't just invite strangers who could rat you out.  It makes no sense on top of totally lacking any evidence to establish it happened.       

[scipio_usmc]

Lookout, just out of interest, what, to you, WOULD constitute concrete proof of Jeremy's guilt?

Her witnessing it and even then she might say her eyes were failing her and it was someone dressed up to look like Jeremy to frame him...

[lookout]

Lookout, just out of interest, what, to you, WOULD constitute concrete proof of Jeremy's guilt?

Something along the lines of a bruised body,black eye,scuffs,and or scrapes,blood down the fingernails,white-faced,odd behaviour,sick with fear/fright,off his food,flashbacks,shaking uncontrollably,unable to function normally,unable to look anyone in the eye, many other out of character features which JM of all people WOULD have noticed and recognised in Jeremy,a NORMAL person. A person whose mentally abnormal/deranged would not have displayed anything out of the ordinary,save for the visual effects of a fight/scuffle.

[Steve_uk]

All you have pointed to is:

1) that very sensitive LCN DNA testing found a weak trace of Sollecito's DNA on a bra clasp that was found months later and could have been contaminated with such DNA at any time during those months and also could have been contaminated by poor handling practices of the lab and police.  There was no way for the government to prove beyond a reasonable doubt such DNA was deposited the night of the murders as a result of Sollecito helping Guede rape her.

2) That a trace of Kercher's DNA was supposedly found on a kitchen knife at Sollecito's.  That knife didn't match the wound on the victim and didn't match the bloody knife print that was made when the killer used the sheets to wipe off the murder weapon and thus left an impression of what the knife looked like.   Knox or Sollecito could have picked up the minute DNA at Knox's place at any time and subsequently transferred it while using the knife on food. There is nothing to establish this minute DNA was transferred as a result of being involved in the murders.  The appeal court said that improper lab practices could have resulted in the knife being contaminated with this DNA in the lab further discounted this evidence.

3) You point to the fact Knox's DNA was found int he bathroom.  I alreayd addressed this, they didn't simply swab Kercher's blood they swabbed Kercher's blood AND THEN swabbed all around the bathroom with the same swab to capture DNA that was in location other than mixed with her blood.  That prevents them from being able to argue anyone's DNA was mixed with the blood.  The APpeal court pointed out these deficiencies.

4) They bought and used cleaning supplies. That is not unusual.  Had they bought the supplies to clean up evidence then there would not have been all the evidence that was found.  They didn't wash away the blood evidence.  The suggestion they managed to wash away all their evidence but yet to not wash away any evidence that implicated Guede is absurd.  There would be no way to them to distinguish blood evidence that implicates him and themselves.  in one breath you say they cleaned up the place then you say her DNA was found in Kercher's blood.  Which is it did they clean up or not?  There is no proof  they cleaned up any evidence.  There was evidence all over the place.

Your supposed evidence doesn't prove anything and you have admitted yourself this:

"Of course for the Prosecution’s case of a sex game gone wrong they had to establish a link between Guede,Sollecito and Knox."

They failed to establish any link.  No evidence of the three exchanging calls, no evidence of them exchanging visits...that is why police initially tried to blame Knox's boss. They found evidence she was communicating with him and twisted to suggest that they were going to meet up because she said "see you later".  They found no evidence of any communication with Guede and only after they processed bloody fingerprints did they get Guede's name because his prints were on file and thus they got a match.

Even after Guede was rewarded with a 10 year reduction in his sentence in exchange for implicating Knox he still didn't provide any link and still denied the notion he was invited there by her.  He claimed that Knox showed up after he had sex with Kercher and while he was in the bathroom she murdered Kercher and then left.  He claimed he then went in to find her dead and touched her to see if she was dead and that was how he got her blood on him then he panicked, dressed and fled.

The state has no link at all between them.  There is no evidence Sollecito ever met Guede. Kercher and knox met him when he visited the same flat they were visiting but there is no evidence he interacted with them let alone shared phone numbers with either or made any kind of connection with either.  That is why the court found it ludicrous that Kercher would have invited him in to hang out and have sex like he claimed she did.   

Even if Knox and Sollecito had run into him on the street by chance that evening and Knox recognized Guede it is ludicrous she would invite him to come help rape and kill Kercher. You don't just invite strangers who could rat you out.  It makes no sense on top of totally lacking any evidence to establish it happened.     

If you discover a murder then you do not go around cleaning blood from anywhere with bleach. Did you read Amanda's diaries entitled "the Nazi inside of me" and did you ever watch Rafaele Sollecito's video dressed in Ku-Klux Klan outfit wielding a meat cleaver? He had a collection of knives. Knox's bloodied footprint was found with luminol in the area. Both had no alibi and turned their mobiles off in unison on the night of the murder.

[Jane]

Something along the lines of a bruised body,black eye,scuffs,and or scrapes,blood down the fingernails,white-faced,odd behaviour,sick with fear/fright,off his food,flashbacks,shaking uncontrollably,unable to function normally,unable to look anyone in the eye, many other out of character features which JM of all people WOULD have noticed and recognised in Jeremy,a NORMAL person. A person whose mentally abnormal/deranged would not have displayed anything out of the ordinary,save for the visual effects of a fight/scuffle.

Thank-you, Lookout. All/SOME of those, all these years on, would be very difficult to prove. I could understand if Julie had noticed, but expecting marriage had decided on silence, but the Boutflours were actively looking for every/ANY sign of guilt and noticed nothing.

Secondly, ANY of the signs you've mentioned could have been displayed by a "normal" person -I've said this myself- but would be absent in a psychopath, which ISN'T a mental derangement but a personality disorder/mind set that UNTIL or UNLESS a crime is committed there's no law against.

I suppose one could argue that all his behaviours following what occurred WERE suspect but as there is no yardstick for behaviour patterns under those particular circumstances, ALL that can be said is there appeared to be NOTHING of the grieving son there.

[Alias]

I have a hard time imagining that Julie would have married a mass murderer.