Russia - worrying?

[David1819]

The True State of Russian Army

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KiII_2qabk

Literally lasted less than two months. lol

[gringo]

    You think Kherson will be governed by Ukrainian government? Separatists still control 70% of the oblast. Ukrainian "control" of Kherson city will end the same as the others. Everyone, who is honest and objective, understands this
    Perhaps you ought to compare the Russian withdrawal from Kherson, orderly including tens of thousands of civilians. It was evacuated to preserve life, which it did.
    Now the Ukrainian withdrawals from Soledar, Bakhmut etc., under fire taking massive losses.
    Ukrainians are getting rolled back everywhere now and taking huge losses, NATO getting desperate.
    NATO/Ukraine fight for territory whilst Russia fights for the rights of the inhabitants of those territories to self determination. It is front of you but you refuse to see past the propaganda.
    None of you will ever answer the question- What about the people who live in those territories? What becomes of them when you impose upon them a government who are willing to use armed force against them?
    Crimea is Ukraine is just a stupid slogan. Crimeans don't agree. Nor do citizens of various current Ukrainian oblasts. Those citizens of all the oblasts will decide on their own status - NATO/Ukraine will have no say or power to prevent it.

[Steve_uk]

    You think Kherson will be governed by Ukrainian government? Separatists still control 70% of the oblast. Ukrainian "control" of Kherson city will end the same as the others. Everyone, who is honest and objective, understands this
    Perhaps you ought to compare the Russian withdrawal from Kherson, orderly including tens of thousands of civilians. It was evacuated to preserve life, which it did.
    Now the Ukrainian withdrawals from Soledar, Bakhmut etc., under fire taking massive losses.
    Ukrainians are getting rolled back everywhere now and taking huge losses, NATO getting desperate.
    NATO/Ukraine fight for territory whilst Russia fights for the rights of the inhabitants of those territories to self determination. It is front of you but you refuse to see past the propaganda.
    None of you will ever answer the question- What about the people who live in those territories? What becomes of them when you impose upon them a government who are willing to use armed force against them?
    Crimea is Ukraine is just a stupid slogan. Crimeans don't agree. Nor do citizens of various current Ukrainian oblasts. Those citizens of all the oblasts will decide on their own status - NATO/Ukraine will have no say or power to prevent it.

But Russia got away with the spoils of Crimea. It seemed this wasn't enough for them.

[gringo]

  https://twitter.com/i/status/1615138445051195392

   Presidential advisor to Zelensky, Oleksiy Arestovych speaking rather candidly about the state of things in Ukraine a few days ago. Now resigned/sacked.

   Here he is again;

https://twitter.com/i/status/1615122227157995521

   Also 3 days ago the interior minister as well as his first deputy and secretary of state were killed in a helicopter crash in Kiev. There is chaos and bloodletting within the Ukie government and its foreign sponsors. But they are apparently winning.

[gringo]

But Russia got away with the spoils of Crimea. It seemed this wasn't enough for them.

   Russia respected the wishes of the Crimeans. Ukraine/NATO wanted their land but not them. What is disputable about that? You frame things exactly as you have been trained to.

[Steve_uk]

   Russia respected the wishes of the Crimeans. Ukraine/NATO wanted their land but not them. What is disputable about that? You frame things exactly as you have been trained to.

I assume you have some respect for Scandinavian countries and their values, all of whom as far as I can discern have backed sanctions against Russia for its territorial incursion into the sovereign state which is Ukraine.

[gringo]

I assume you have some respect for Scandinavian countries and their values, all of whom as far as I can discern have backed sanctions against Russia for its territorial incursion into the sovereign state which is Ukraine.

   Most EU governments are simply vassals of NATO/EU now and no longer representative of the views of their citizens. The model of western democracy is far too corrupted and in bed with corporate and financial behemoths.
    Scandinavian governments can speak for themselves(or their paymasters). Their support of sanctions means nothing other than they did as instructed.
    Having a differing view is not the same as lacking respect. It depends. I refuse to respect views that consider only selected "facts" because they are dishonest and/or ill informed. I won't agree with someone just because I respect them. That would be disrespectful of us both. 

[Steve_uk]

   Most EU governments are simply vassals of NATO/EU now and no longer representative of the views of their citizens. The model of western democracy is far too corrupted and in bed with corporate and financial behemoths.
    Scandinavian governments can speak for themselves(or their paymasters). Their support of sanctions means nothing other than they did as instructed.
    Having a differing view is not the same as lacking respect. It depends. I refuse to respect views that consider only selected "facts" because they are dishonest and/or ill informed. I won't agree with someone just because I respect them. That would be disrespectful of us both.

You see we have had this before when the Austro-Hungarian empire collapsed in 1918, leaving ethnic Germans distributed amongst different states. I sometimes wonder whether Putin's advisors have schooled him in that period of history and the Nazi tactics employed, dripping the poison into his mouth that all ethnic Russians wish to be reunited with the Motherland.

[gringo]

You're forgetting the 1995 Srebrenica massacre of 8000 Muslim males. It was in this context to prevent further bloodshed that NATO intervened. It should not have been regarded as a precedent for the Russian invasion of Ukraine as the Foreign Affairs Select Committee subsequently admitted it was technically illegal. There is no such body in Russia which would ever challenge Putin's authority in this way.

  On October 12, 2005, Johnstone discussed it in her CounterPunch article titled, "Srebrenica Revisited," remembering its summer 10th anniversary when the "dominant themes were 'nostra culpa:' 'we' let it happen, 'we' didn't want to know about it, and 'we' mustn't let it happen again."

Who are "we," she asked, and how accurate is the official story, questions to this day "virtually taboo" to preserve the official myth, including exaggerating Serb atrocities "whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential.

Official accounts portrayed "a one-sided conflict between a Serbian 'fascist aggressor' and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians."

Unexplained was that Srebrenica was a Muslim military base, besides a refugee "safe area." Slobodan Milosevic, in fact, wanted Serb forces restrained from overrunning it. In addition:

-- before the July 1995 attack, Srebrebica-based Muslim forces "carried out murderous attacks on nearby Serb villages;"

-- Muslim Sarajevo officials withdrew their Srebrenica commanders, "leaving thousands of....soldiers (leaderless), without orders, and in total confusion when the foreseeable Serb attack occurred;"

-- when "Bosnian Serb forces captured (Srebrenica) on July 11, 1995," civilians wanted to leave because normality there didn't exist;

-- separating women and children from men was, in fact, done to find "the perpetrators of raids on Serb villages (to) take revenge;" and

-- yet only a small number "were detained at that point;" some, in fact, survived.

The alleged Srebrenica victim count reflected lies and half-truths based on what's known but omitted in official and major media accounts. The 8,000 number included the Red Cross estimate of 3,000 "witnesses," allegedly detained by Bosnian Serbs, as well as another 5,000 Red Cross accounts said "fled Srebrenica, some of whom reached Central Bosnia."

In other words, they fled. They weren't killed. Yet, they were added to the mythical death toll to inflate it. Years later, in fact, forensic teams discovered 2,361 bodies in the area where heavy fighting occurred, including combatants on both sides, not massacred civilians.

Johnstone explained that "(n)either the Bosnian Serbs nor the Muslims were ever forthcoming with whatever information they had, (yet) the '8,000' figure (became) an established total of 'Muslim men and boys executed by Serb forces.' "

Afterward, Washington exploited Srebrenica to:

-- conceal "the US-backed Croatian offensive," forcefully removing Serbs from Krajina, an operation approved and supported by Washington, perhaps killing larger numbers than the alleged Srebrenica numbers, including women and children ruthlessly; and

-- "implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in 'genocide' (to) disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

Exploiting the alleged Srebrenica massacre facilitated waging 1999 imperial war by blaming UN inability to protect it, so NATO's humanitarian war had to intervene. In addition, Milosevic was falsely criminalized for alleged genocidal killings "against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons."

Claiming Serbian caused genocide was, in fact, used "as an effective instrument (to) restructur(e) Yugoslavia," balkanizing it under US control. Official and media propaganda repeated fabrications, exaggerations, and half-truths about what happened, portraying victims as perpetrators to this day.

Heading for a Hague tribunal lynching, Ratko Mladic is already guilty by accusation before he arrives. Washington, of course, insists on it to perpetuate the official lie, a massacre invented out of whole cloth.

Yet most people still believe it, the same ones perhaps thinking Washington's led NATO war on Gaddafi is another humanitarian intervention, when, in fact, it's more imperial aggression, slaughtering civilians daily, not protecting them!

      NATO governments lie, their countries media lie. Full article below;

https://countercurrents.org/lendman280511C.htm

[gringo]

You see we have had this before when the Austro-Hungarian empire collapsed in 1918, leaving ethnic Germans distributed amongst different states. I sometimes wonder whether Putin's advisors have schooled him in that period of history and the Nazi tactics employed, dripping the poison into his mouth that all ethnic Russians wish to be reunited with the Motherland.

   The Russian motives are plain to see and spelled out. They will not tolerate a hostile state hosting nuclear weapons in its backyard. NATO will comply.
    This is the problem with such a controlled media space.

    Russia: We are going to do A & B to achieve C.
    NATO govs & media: Putin wants to do X & Y to achieve Z
    Russia: Do A & B- achieve C
    NATO: Putin and Russia are too weak to do X & Y to achieve Z. We won!
             

[Steve_uk]

  On October 12, 2005, Johnstone discussed it in her CounterPunch article titled, "Srebrenica Revisited," remembering its summer 10th anniversary when the "dominant themes were 'nostra culpa:' 'we' let it happen, 'we' didn't want to know about it, and 'we' mustn't let it happen again."

Who are "we," she asked, and how accurate is the official story, questions to this day "virtually taboo" to preserve the official myth, including exaggerating Serb atrocities "whereas Muslim atrocities (such as the decapitations of Serb prisoners, fully documented) remained confidential.

Official accounts portrayed "a one-sided conflict between a Serbian 'fascist aggressor' and innocent victims, all unarmed civilians."

Unexplained was that Srebrenica was a Muslim military base, besides a refugee "safe area." Slobodan Milosevic, in fact, wanted Serb forces restrained from overrunning it. In addition:

-- before the July 1995 attack, Srebrebica-based Muslim forces "carried out murderous attacks on nearby Serb villages;"

-- Muslim Sarajevo officials withdrew their Srebrenica commanders, "leaving thousands of....soldiers (leaderless), without orders, and in total confusion when the foreseeable Serb attack occurred;"

-- when "Bosnian Serb forces captured (Srebrenica) on July 11, 1995," civilians wanted to leave because normality there didn't exist;

-- separating women and children from men was, in fact, done to find "the perpetrators of raids on Serb villages (to) take revenge;" and

-- yet only a small number "were detained at that point;" some, in fact, survived.

The alleged Srebrenica victim count reflected lies and half-truths based on what's known but omitted in official and major media accounts. The 8,000 number included the Red Cross estimate of 3,000 "witnesses," allegedly detained by Bosnian Serbs, as well as another 5,000 Red Cross accounts said "fled Srebrenica, some of whom reached Central Bosnia."

In other words, they fled. They weren't killed. Yet, they were added to the mythical death toll to inflate it. Years later, in fact, forensic teams discovered 2,361 bodies in the area where heavy fighting occurred, including combatants on both sides, not massacred civilians.

Johnstone explained that "(n)either the Bosnian Serbs nor the Muslims were ever forthcoming with whatever information they had, (yet) the '8,000' figure (became) an established total of 'Muslim men and boys executed by Serb forces.' "

Afterward, Washington exploited Srebrenica to:

-- conceal "the US-backed Croatian offensive," forcefully removing Serbs from Krajina, an operation approved and supported by Washington, perhaps killing larger numbers than the alleged Srebrenica numbers, including women and children ruthlessly; and

-- "implicate Bosnian Serb leaders in 'genocide' (to) disqualify them from negotiating the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

Exploiting the alleged Srebrenica massacre facilitated waging 1999 imperial war by blaming UN inability to protect it, so NATO's humanitarian war had to intervene. In addition, Milosevic was falsely criminalized for alleged genocidal killings "against non-Serbs for purely racist reasons."

Claiming Serbian caused genocide was, in fact, used "as an effective instrument (to) restructur(e) Yugoslavia," balkanizing it under US control. Official and media propaganda repeated fabrications, exaggerations, and half-truths about what happened, portraying victims as perpetrators to this day.

Heading for a Hague tribunal lynching, Ratko Mladic is already guilty by accusation before he arrives. Washington, of course, insists on it to perpetuate the official lie, a massacre invented out of whole cloth.

Yet most people still believe it, the same ones perhaps thinking Washington's led NATO war on Gaddafi is another humanitarian intervention, when, in fact, it's more imperial aggression, slaughtering civilians daily, not protecting them!

      NATO governments lie, their countries media lie. Full article below;

https://countercurrents.org/lendman280511C.htm

Mr. Lendman sounds suspiciously like David Irving to me, but I will read further. https://youtu.be/lug4CxhRp_8

[gringo]

Mr. Lendman sounds suspiciously like David Irving to me, but I will read further. https://youtu.be/lug4CxhRp_8

   Don't know about that(David Irving. There are many other accounts about Srebenica that show the official western version to be a collection of half truths and outright mis/dis-information.
     As to the suspicions that the writer could be? David Irving. His views aside, which I don't know enough to care about, he is an excellent historian.
     

[gringo]

Mr. Lendman sounds suspiciously like David Irving to me, but I will read further. https://youtu.be/lug4CxhRp_8

    It is not healthy to read only inside your own echo chamber. If nothing is challenged, no alternative views heard then there is zero likelihood that you will enlighten upon the truth.
     We should all read views which challenge our own orthodoxy. Keeps things honest.

[David1819]

What happened to the air war in Ukraine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuXwOM-2yq8

[David1819]

David Irving - Can you trust ANYTHING he wrote?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsLW7VrOpA8