Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365159 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #585 on: May 03, 2021, 12:57:PM »
I would have said that China was the most worrying country.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #586 on: May 03, 2021, 04:18:PM »
Gringo, what do you think of George Monbiot and Double Down News? His videos are good.
    Here's one from DoubleDown on press freedom day with a good brief explanation of why we should all care about Assange;
 https://www.doubledown.news/watch/2020/28/october/the-trial-of-julian-assange-should-terrify-everyone-matt-kennard
 

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #587 on: May 03, 2021, 06:43:PM »
I would have said that China was the most worrying country.

This is unfortunatly China's century. Whoever is Putins successor, will be from a generation that dosent share his outdated Cold War mentality.

In 20 or 30 years time when China becomes the pre-eminent world power, Russia will come much closer to Europe and America and possibly even be a NATO member.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 06:44:PM by David1819 »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #588 on: May 03, 2021, 07:20:PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtHX23Trvy4&ab_channel=OxfordEconomicsSociety

   If you have an hour to spare, some real depth on the history and current status of the ever raging  economic/financial war which ultimately is the real force behind actual wars. The always readable/watchable Michael Hudson.
   

   

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #589 on: May 03, 2021, 08:52:PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtHX23Trvy4&ab_channel=OxfordEconomicsSociety

   If you have an hour to spare, some real depth on the history and current status of the ever raging  economic/financial war which ultimately is the real force behind actual wars. The always readable/watchable Michael Hudson.
   

 
I did spare an hour and I suppose in some ways it was better than playing a computer game, though in some areas the Marxist view of economics leaves much to be desired.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #590 on: May 03, 2021, 09:32:PM »
I did spare an hour and I suppose in some ways it was better than playing a computer game, though in some areas the Marxist view of economics leaves much to be desired.
  Fair play for sparing the hour, Steve. I think voices like Hudson should be heard and given a platform more in the mainstream media. There was a time, not so long ago, when voices that challenged the current orthodoxy were given a platform and issues were discussed with way more nuance than is tolerated now.
   

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #591 on: May 03, 2021, 10:00:PM »
I did spare an hour and I suppose in some ways it was better than playing a computer game, though in some areas the Marxist view of economics leaves much to be desired.
    We, as a society, need to get back to healthy debate, which is by definition robust and confrontational at times. Whatever happened to sticks and stones, speaking of which, a more enjoyable hour possibly than the Hudson video; the always funny and provocative Dave Chappelle Netflix special  (Sticks and Stones). Assuming you have Netflix the link is below. 
        https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81140577   

guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #592 on: May 04, 2021, 07:51:AM »
    We, as a society, need to get back to healthy debate, which is by definition robust and confrontational at times. Whatever happened to sticks and stones, speaking of which, a more enjoyable hour possibly than the Hudson video; the always funny and provocative Dave Chappelle Netflix special  (Sticks and Stones). Assuming you have Netflix the link is below. 
        https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81140577

That sounds marvellous.  Unfortunately, it can't work in reality.  What actually happens is that some people believe they have a divine right to insult other people.  When their victims complain, the abusers start gaslighting, saying that the people they victimise are being 'hypersensitive' and it is, after all, 'free speech' and the victims should grow up, be thicker skinned and stop crying like babies.  When their victims respond by adopting the behaviour of the abusers and insulting them back - giving them a taste of their own medicine - the abusers suddenly decide they are not in favour of free speech after all and would rather everybody is polite.

In reality, free speech can't work in any complex social situation, such as a society or an online forum, because human nature works against it.   

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #593 on: May 04, 2021, 04:52:PM »
That sounds marvellous.  Unfortunately, it can't work in reality.  What actually happens is that some people believe they have a divine right to insult other people.  When their victims complain, the abusers start gaslighting, saying that the people they victimise are being 'hypersensitive' and it is, after all, 'free speech' and the victims should grow up, be thicker skinned and stop crying like babies.  When their victims respond by adopting the behaviour of the abusers and insulting them back - giving them a taste of their own medicine - the abusers suddenly decide they are not in favour of free speech after all and would rather everybody is polite.

In reality, free speech can't work in any complex social situation, such as a society or an online forum, because human nature works against it.   

Plus Brandolini's law makes debating with conspiracy nuts rather difficult.

Online Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #594 on: May 04, 2021, 05:47:PM »
Plus Brandolini's law makes debating with conspiracy nuts rather difficult.

Do you believe that the term ’conspiracy’ initially evolved as an insult? Or for that matter, the term ’conspire'? 

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #595 on: May 04, 2021, 06:22:PM »
Do you believe that the term ’conspiracy’ initially evolved as an insult? Or for that matter, the term ’conspire'?

I believe the term has extraterrestrial origins that NASA and the Pentagon don't want us to know about!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 06:23:PM by David1819 »

guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #596 on: May 04, 2021, 07:39:PM »
I believe the term has extraterrestrial origins that NASA and the Pentagon don't want us to know about!

We did agree that you'd keep that to yourself, David.  Me and nugnug have revealed too much already about the aliens and their visits to our planet. 

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #597 on: May 04, 2021, 10:30:PM »
That sounds marvellous.  Unfortunately, it can't work in reality.  What actually happens is that some people believe they have a divine right to insult other people.  When their victims complain, the abusers start gaslighting, saying that the people they victimise are being 'hypersensitive' and it is, after all, 'free speech' and the victims should grow up, be thicker skinned and stop crying like babies.  When their victims respond by adopting the behaviour of the abusers and insulting them back - giving them a taste of their own medicine - the abusers suddenly decide they are not in favour of free speech after all and would rather everybody is polite.

In reality, free speech can't work in any complex social situation, such as a society or an online forum, because human nature works against it.   
  Free speech does work in social situations, complex or otherwise, when people are left to police their own speech. Those who step beyond the bounds of acceptability are dealt with by having their position ridiculed, shunned or ignored and excommunicated. That is how it has always worked before the advent of cancel culture and the "right" to not be offended.
      To give an example; In 2009 the BNP were enjoying something of a surge in support, having taken a number of council seats and seemingly poised to take a parliamentary seat (Barking, fittingly) in the 2010 election.
     Controversially this led to an invitation for Nick Griffin, the then BNP leader, onto "Question Time", a decision which led to protests and much hand wringing for "allowing" Griffin's hate speech, fascism etc.
I felt then, and still do, that if the BNP had enough support to justify inclusion, then this should be the only metric used. It is not for some anonymous arbiter to decide what we can say or hear. Who is this "Arbiter/Judge of allowed opinions? In a healthy society it is us who decide what is acceptable or the accepted norm by healthy debate; this may offend some but there is no other way.
     Shutting down people like Griffin encourages the perception that others are scared of debating his "truths" and that he is being silenced. The best way to defeat "bad ideas" is with better ideas. It is notable that Griffin performed badly on QT and his ideas were shown to be hateful, ignorant, ill thought through rhetoric, not surprisingly. Shutting him down and giving in to the mob would probably have gained the BNP more votes; Allowing him to expose himself publicly with his batshit ideas allowed those who may be swayed, to see the BNP for what they really were.

     Your examples are dealing with a separate issue. The argument used by you that people are for free speech until they are offended is over generalising. Which people? All of them? Were I to take offence at something you, or anybody else says, I don't expect anyone to censor you on my behalf. I can choose to respond or ignore.
     The policing of debate between individuals or groups is a different issue to the policing of allowable discourse in the public commons by who knows who or what. They are not in the same ballpark, so I don't understand the relevance of abusers, victims, gas-lighters and cry babies to the issue at hand. It isn't about polite or impolite.
     
       
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:32:PM by gringo »

Online Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #598 on: May 05, 2021, 07:43:AM »
Free speech is when a Human Rights Watch report in to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is given adequate coverage in the mainstream press & media and debated accordingly.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #599 on: May 05, 2021, 01:45:PM »
Free speech is when a Human Rights Watch report in to Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is given adequate coverage in the mainstream press & media and debated accordingly.
   Occupied Palestine is never debated accordingly. It will eventually end the same way as the previous apartheid state.