Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365145 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #555 on: April 28, 2021, 04:39:PM »
Fair point and well put, but on the other hand, hasn't the ECHR ruled twice now (in 2014 and 2019) against the Russian Federation in actions brought by Navalny to that court?  The 2014 ruling was that Navalny did not receive a fair trial in the fraud case.  The 2019 ruling was that Navalny's civil and political rights have been breached by the Russian Federation.

I think it is true that Russia lacks the judicial safeguards and checks and balances that countries such as Britain have.  I would have no hesitation in visiting Russia again and I would consider myself safe there, but I'm not sure I would be confident about engaging in any sort of political protest or criticism of government in that country.  Not that I would do so in somebody else's country anyway, but the point in principle is that Russia - for various reasons, partly to do with its own history - does not have the same depth of commitment to political liberty that exists in the West and the Western mind.

I take on board your point about Assange's plight and the unfavourable comparison, but that is a different case.  I would not extradite Julian Assange, but at the same time, I'm not sure his cause is as sympathetic as it is spun out by his supporters.  I have total sympathy for his situation and I think he should be released forthwith, but he acted recklessly and stupidly in some of his activities for Wikileaks.

Personally, I think what happens in Russia in the matter of their choice of leader and system of government is no business of Britain and I am perplexed by the fuss and think most of the criticisms of Putin are wrong or unfair or misdirected, or even when valid, seem hypocritical, and in virtually all cases inevitably demonstrate ignorance about Russia - a sovereign foreign country with its own deep and rich history and way of doing things that is in some ways quite alien to the Western mind.
   Not a lot to disagree  with there. I am not particularly confident in the impartiality of many international institutions, ECHR included, but a fair analysis. Your main point, in a nutshell, that it is for Russians to hold their govt. to account is so obvious that I find it hard to understand the mentality of those who seem to think that they carry some sort of "white anglo mans burden".
    The point of the Assange comparison was basically that there is no comparison and criticising other governments for their treatment of dissidents is lacking in self awareness, to put it kindly. Assange has committed no crime. People are free to agree or disagree with his methods but the breaching of diplomatic premises to arrest him for a foreign power was seen by the world and I don't think it was a good advert for "Brand UK". I doubt that the rest of the world fails to see this rank hypocrisy from the UK at the behest of others. David and Steve fail to see this and are forced to defend the indefensible, hence their focus on all things Russia bad just like they've been trained to.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #556 on: April 28, 2021, 04:45:PM »
Its the protesters I am concerned about.
   Of course you are, David. You're concerned about the very things that you have been brainwashed into being concerned about. Luckily for you, the UK is so utopian that we have no problems of our own to concern ourselves with and we can worry other countries internal issues  :o :o

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #557 on: April 28, 2021, 05:40:PM »
   Not a lot to disagree  with there. I am not particularly confident in the impartiality of many international institutions, ECHR included, but a fair analysis. Your main point, in a nutshell, that it is for Russians to hold their govt. to account is so obvious that I find it hard to understand the mentality of those who seem to think that they carry some sort of "white anglo mans burden".
    The point of the Assange comparison was basically that there is no comparison and criticising other governments for their treatment of dissidents is lacking in self awareness, to put it kindly. Assange has committed no crime. People are free to agree or disagree with his methods but the breaching of diplomatic premises to arrest him for a foreign power was seen by the world and I don't think it was a good advert for "Brand UK". I doubt that the rest of the world fails to see this rank hypocrisy from the UK at the behest of others. David and Steve fail to see this and are forced to defend the indefensible, hence their focus on all things Russia bad just like they've been trained to.

Russia is a voluntary contracting part to the Convention, having ratified it in 1998 (though the Duma also passed a law in 2015 that gives the Russian constitution supremacy over ECHR rulings).  In the strict juridical sense, the ECHR are impartial in the face of the parties that litigate before them, but I agree they are not politically-neutral.  Essentially the West's institutions have fallen under a Leftist orthodoxy.  Russia is corrupt and lacks the civic strengths of Western countries, but the original point of the Convention was to prevent significant genuine human rights abuses, not police how contracting states conduct trials for ordinary criminal offences and other mundane matters.

I agree we should keep well out of it and I oppose all the rhetoric against Russia and Putin. People in the West who like to stir things up are the real problem.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #558 on: April 29, 2021, 01:06:AM »
Russia is a voluntary contracting part to the Convention, having ratified it in 1998 (though the Duma also passed a law in 2015 that gives the Russian constitution supremacy over ECHR rulings). In the strict juridical sense, the ECHR are impartial in the face of the parties that litigate before them, but I agree they are not politically-neutral.  Essentially the West's institutions have fallen under a Leftist orthodoxy.  Russia is corrupt and lacks the civic strengths of Western countries, but the original point of the Convention was to prevent significant genuine human rights abuses, not police how contracting states conduct trials for ordinary criminal offences and other mundane matters.

I agree we should keep well out of it and I oppose all the rhetoric against Russia and Putin. People in the West who like to stir things up are the real problem.
   Russia in the 90's, in the aftermath of the break up of the Soviet Union, was in a different position then. I am sure that you are aware of this but I think this explains a lot. Under Yeltsin, there was a desire to "join the west" but the Western countries oversaw massive liberalisation (a euphemism for theft and looting) of substantial state assets. Much of the dirty money in the City of London is looted Russian wealth. During this period Russia was relatively weak and gave up too much.
     Putin has clearly clamped down on this and by any reasonable measure, Russia has done excellently under his rule. Russia has slowly realised that Western intentions towards Russia are only on the West's non negotiable terms and has gradually moved further away. The West's anger and frothing over Putin and Russia is because he is so good, not that he is bad. He ended their looting.
     Your point about cultural differences is also misunderstood by many. The provision of shelters stocked with provisions and necessities in enough numbers and size to provide shelter for the entire population is something informed by having to fight so many defensive wars. We're meant to duck under a table and hope for the best or something. 
     Have never visited myself yet but is somewhere that I would like to, geopolitics allowing. Obviously it is interesting enough that you would go back so not bad enough to deter you.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #559 on: April 29, 2021, 04:59:PM »
   Of course you are, David. You're concerned about the very things that you have been brainwashed into being concerned about. Luckily for you, the UK is so utopian that we have no problems of our own to concern ourselves with and we can worry other countries internal issues  :o :o

Arright I have been brainwashed into being concerned about the lack of human rights in various places around the world. There's me thinking it was all down to a natural sense solicitude most people have.

Thanks for pointing this out gringo 👍

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #560 on: April 29, 2021, 06:17:PM »
Arright I have been brainwashed into being concerned about the lack of human rights in various places around the world. There's me thinking it was all down to a natural sense solicitude most people have.

Thanks for pointing this out gringo 👍
    The lack of human rights that you concern yourself with are exactly the same ones that the UK govt., media and intel services pretend to concern themselves with also. What a massive coincidence. You need to read more widely if you want to be taken seriously on the wider geopolitical picture. Read some foreign news sites, perhaps some of the many blogs out there.
     There is a fairly simple test, that anyone can do, to check the reliability of any writer/journalist. Dig into the archives and see for yourself how each has stood the test of time. BBC, Guardian and UK media generally fail this test miserably. Inconsistent and ever changing, which is exactly what would happen if you lied, coincidentally. Widen your perspective, David.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #561 on: April 29, 2021, 06:41:PM »
    The lack of human rights that you concern yourself with are exactly the same ones that the UK govt., media and intel services pretend to concern themselves with also. What a massive coincidence. You need to read more widely if you want to be taken seriously on the wider geopolitical picture. Read some foreign news sites, perhaps some of the many blogs out there.
     There is a fairly simple test, that anyone can do, to check the reliability of any writer/journalist. Dig into the archives and see for yourself how each has stood the test of time. BBC, Guardian and UK media generally fail this test miserably. Inconsistent and ever changing, which is exactly what would happen if you lied, coincidentally. Widen your perspective, David.

The police have just visited me. I have 24 hours to check into Redbridge council political re-education camp for indefinite internment or risk imprisonment. They must be monitoring this forum.  :(

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #562 on: April 29, 2021, 07:01:PM »
The police have just visited me. I have 24 hours to check into Redbridge council political re-education camp for indefinite internment or risk imprisonment. They must be monitoring this forum.  :(
   Inane replies, such as this, merely confirm the need to widen your reading and perspective.

Online Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #563 on: April 29, 2021, 07:03:PM »
   Inane replies, such as this, merely confirm the need to widen your reading and perspective.

Gringo, what do you think of George Monbiot and Double Down News? His videos are good.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #564 on: April 29, 2021, 10:01:PM »
Gringo, what do you think of George Monbiot and Double Down News? His videos are good.
   Have not read Double Down before but having just had a look at their website I will give it a read. There are writers on there who I have read plenty of articles by, Glenn Greenwald and Naomi Wimborne-idrissi to name two, whose writing I generally regard as truthful and honest. Monbiot is, in my opinion, a kind of allowed opposition. His stances on important issues are too often in step with the establishment lies. Anyone who is paid to write regularly in the Guardian, knows where the bounds are and what is allowable dissent.
     Having said that, we only have a hope of finding the truth if we listen to all views and use our discernment from there.
     Unz review is a good site for those willing to have their thinking challenged. There are articles on there by extremely right wing and left wing writers and everything in between. I don't endorse every writer on there, it would be intellectually impossible, but Ron Unz site is what free speech looks like.
     Jonathon Cook, who previously wrote for the Guardian as middle East correspondent but whose views on Zionism and Israel are now seen as taboo in the Western MSM, is regularly given a platform for his articles. He is an excellent writer, based in Nazareth and Jewish himself but the "wrong kind of jew" for the MSM. He is also pretty vocal about the decline in the editorial independence of the Graun and has written about this. There was a change at the Guardian after the Snowden leaks and the GCHQ visit and it is no longer the paper that allowed the kind of reporting that Nick Davies performed forcing the Leveson Enquiry.
     There are so many good informed writers given a platform at Unz that you can't list them all.
     Michael Hudson is excellent on the wider economic financial war and its consequences and implications. Pepe Escobar is good on middle eastern politics and the geopolitical picture generally but there are lots of good informed commentators whose work is platformed there.
     Excellent archives, including entire history books written in the aftermath of WW2 whose truth is now not allowed and therefore not available in print anymore. QC recommended it once, as I recall, so I assume that he also is a reader.
     Moon of Alabama is an excellent one man blog, which has been running more or less since the internet was a thing, originally as Billmon blog. Particularly on the ongoing Syrian war that the UK media has to perform contortions reporting on in order to paint Al Qaeda, Al Nusra Front and various other flavours of extreme foreign Islamic jihadists as legitimate moderate rebels. It is a sick media that can portray head chopping foreign jihadists slaughtering Syrian Army, Police and citizens of all religious denominations as the good guys and the Syrians under their legitimate President fighting these invaders as the bad guys. There is a really informed and diverse commentariat in the comments section with plenty of links to opinions and voices not readily heard in our media. Also archives of all previous pieces, which allows those discerning enough to assess the credibility of the writer.
      From what I can see with Double Down it deals largely with domestic politics so will definitely have a good look over next few days. Platforms like this are hopefully the future of media because we need media that functions. The mainstream does even bother to veil its hypocrisy and lies anymore. The treatment of Corbyn, whatever ones view of him,  opened a few more peoples eyes to their lies and one sided narratives, the Skripal and Navalny narratives are so preposterous and full of holes that they should be embarrassed.
     Meandered a bit more than intended, but if you haven't read those sites then they worth a look.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #565 on: April 29, 2021, 11:04:PM »
     Hi Roch, just watched some of double down and seems good. See it is videos rather than articles so should have written watch not read earlier. I have seen a few videos previously from here from others posting links occasionally without ever linking to the homepage. Have it noted now  :)

Online Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #566 on: April 30, 2021, 03:17:AM »
Thanks for the pointers there Gringo. Plenty to check out.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #567 on: April 30, 2021, 07:50:AM »
Thanks for the pointers there Gringo. Plenty to check out.

This might also be worth checking out Roch  :))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_sightings_in_Russia
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 07:50:AM by David1819 »

guest29835

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #568 on: April 30, 2021, 08:35:AM »
This might also be worth checking out Roch  :))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_sightings_in_Russia

I thought we agreed you'd keep all that under wraps, David?  It's traumatic enough being kidnapped by a race of sex-addicted female alien nymphs without having it broadcast all over the internet.  All I was doing was walking along a lake in Siberia, minding my own business...

I can't help it if extra-terrestrials want to study me because I'm well-endowed.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #569 on: April 30, 2021, 11:26:AM »
This might also be worth checking out Roch  :))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_sightings_in_Russia
   Your mocking links demonstrate your inability to engage on anything substantial. What has anything that has been said to do with UFO sightings or conspiracies? The ongoing wars sponsored by US/UK have killed millions and displaced many more millions. Functioning states have been bombed back to the stone age. None of this was Russia, China or Iran. You keep on telling yourself that Russia, Putin, China et al are a threat to world peace and that the UK are standing up against tyranny along with the US and other vassal states.
      The US/UK NATO are without comparison when it comes to death and destruction caused in the world. China, Russia and Iran are not the threats to world peace, we are.