Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 363655 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2910 on: July 08, 2023, 11:46:PM »
Ukrainian HIMARS taking out a battery of russian MSTA-S self-propelled howitzers

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/14memm0/ukrainian_himars_taking_out_battery_of_russian/

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2911 on: July 11, 2023, 03:26:PM »
Gringo and NGB... I have two spare VIP tickets your names on them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frL1oTvYe5Y

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2912 on: July 11, 2023, 03:59:PM »
Gringo and NGB... I have two spare VIP tickets your names on them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frL1oTvYe5Y

 I will really look forward to it! :( :(

Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2913 on: July 11, 2023, 04:20:PM »
I see Joe Biden's on there. He's like a corpse that needs propping up. They must be sick to death of picking him up and redirecting him. How can you have somebody who is deteriorating so fast as president? He's just a puppet.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2914 on: July 11, 2023, 06:51:PM »
I see Joe Biden's on there. He's like a corpse that needs propping up. They must be sick to death of picking him up and redirecting him. How can you have somebody who is deteriorating so fast as president? He's just a puppet.
There seemed to be a rush to support him if only to defeat Bernie Sanders.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2915 on: July 11, 2023, 08:46:PM »
I see Joe Biden's on there. He's like a corpse that needs propping up. They must be sick to death of picking him up and redirecting him. How can you have somebody who is deteriorating so fast as president? He's just a puppet.
   So who are the puppeteers, Roch? Who or what interests are the ones pulling the strings?
     Are these VIP Crimea party tickets +1's, David? My better half (or babushka, if you prefer) will not be happy at missing out  :(
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 09:11:PM by gringo »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2916 on: July 11, 2023, 09:42:PM »
    The NATO summit in Vilnius and the weak statement on Ukraine "membership" and what it means dissected by the excellent, Bernhard, on MOA today below;

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/07/natos-big-climb-down.html#comments

   From the article, the official Communique of the NATO Heads of State is copied below;

"11. We fully support Ukraine’s right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. We reaffirm the commitment we made at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, and today we recognise that Ukraine’s path to full Euro-Atlantic integration has moved beyond the need for the Membership Action Plan. Ukraine has become increasingly interoperable and politically integrated with the Alliance, and has made substantial progress on its reform path. In line with the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine and the 2009 Complement, Allies will continue to support and review Ukraine’s progress on interoperability as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms that are required. NATO Foreign Ministers will regularly assess progress through the adapted Annual National Programme. The Alliance will support Ukraine in making these reforms on its path towards future membership. We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met."
[/b]


     It sounds to me that the date for Ukraine's admittance to NATO has been made clear. All the bla bla above means, in more clear terms, Ukraine will become full members of NATO on the Twelfth of Never.

     

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2917 on: July 15, 2023, 05:04:PM »
    The NATO summit in Vilnius and the weak statement on Ukraine "membership" and what it means dissected by the excellent, Bernhard, on MOA today below;

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/07/natos-big-climb-down.html#comments

   From the article, the official Communique of the NATO Heads of State is copied below;

"11. We fully support Ukraine’s right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. We reaffirm the commitment we made at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, and today we recognise that Ukraine’s path to full Euro-Atlantic integration has moved beyond the need for the Membership Action Plan. Ukraine has become increasingly interoperable and politically integrated with the Alliance, and has made substantial progress on its reform path. In line with the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine and the 2009 Complement, Allies will continue to support and review Ukraine’s progress on interoperability as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms that are required. NATO Foreign Ministers will regularly assess progress through the adapted Annual National Programme. The Alliance will support Ukraine in making these reforms on its path towards future membership. We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met."
[/b]


     It sounds to me that the date for Ukraine's admittance to NATO has been made clear. All the bla bla above means, in more clear terms, Ukraine will become full members of NATO on the Twelfth of Never.

     

The expected outcome of the war in Tankie fantasy world has greatly been diminished in the last 16 month.

First it was the "End of the empire of lies"

Then it was reduced to "NATO would withdraw to its 1993 borders"

Then it was reduced to "Russia would take Odesa and the whole Ukrainian coast"

Then it was reduced to "Zelenskys government is about to collapse"

Then it was reduced to "The flour Oblasts are not returning" (despite two of the four Oblast capitals not being in Russian hands).

Now its merely "Ukraine wont join NATO".


 :))

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2918 on: July 15, 2023, 06:59:PM »
The expected outcome of the war in Tankie fantasy world has greatly been diminished in the last 16 month.

First it was the "End of the empire of lies"

Then it was reduced to "NATO would withdraw to its 1993 borders"

Then it was reduced to "Russia would take Odesa and the whole Ukrainian coast"

Then it was reduced to "Zelenskys government is about to collapse"

Then it was reduced to "The flour Oblasts are not returning" (despite two of the four Oblast capitals not being in Russian hands).

Now its merely "Ukraine wont join NATO".


 :))
    None of the expected outcomes have changed. It is NATO whose demands and belligerence are being toned down. The End of the Empire of Lies is happening at an increasing pace, David. Where do you get the notion that "Tankie Fantasy World" (aka realistic and impartial observers of international relations and wider geopolitical picture) is toning down any expectations.
     The entirety of NATO were claiming some months ago that the only result was to defeat Russia militarily. Now the talk is only of a "negotiated" settlement. Remember the last "negotiated settlement"?

     Minsk 2 was the last "negotiated settlement". As previously discussed and now openly acknowledged, Russia dictated the terms of the negotiation. All of NATO veto wielding UNSC members(US/UK/France) acquiesced to the Russian dictated "negotiated settlement". When you understand and acknowledge why and how Russia were able to do this, it will go some way to informing who the next "negotiated settlement" will favour.
     
     

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2919 on: July 15, 2023, 07:03:PM »
    None of the expected outcomes have changed. It is NATO whose demands and belligerence are being toned down. The End of the Empire of Lies is happening at an increasing pace, David. Where do you get the notion that "Tankie Fantasy World" (aka realistic and impartial observers of international relations and wider geopolitical picture) is toning down any expectations.
     The entirety of NATO were claiming some months ago that the only result was to defeat Russia militarily. Now the talk is only of a "negotiated" settlement. Remember the last "negotiated settlement"?

     Minsk 2 was the last "negotiated settlement". As previously discussed and now openly acknowledged, Russia dictated the terms of the negotiation. All of NATO veto wielding UNSC members(US/UK/France) acquiesced to the Russian dictated "negotiated settlement". When you understand and acknowledge why and how Russia were able to do this, it will go some way to informing who the next "negotiated settlement" will favour.
     
     
I can't see the West compromising. Biden won't. Trump wouldn't if elected. Zelensky won't cede territory.

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2920 on: July 15, 2023, 07:35:PM »
I can't see the West compromising. Biden won't. Trump wouldn't if elected. Zelensky won't cede territory.
   What they would prefer to do and what the actual choices will be, with a metaphorical gun held to their head, is going to be decided by the Russian leadership. NATO/Ukraine have zero prospect of achieving any of their aims. The populace of the regions that they seek to "liberate" don't want "liberating" by Ukraine. You should question, but won't, who exactly the lands are to liberated for. The answer is Corporate and Financial interests. It isn't the inhabitants of those regions that NATO want to "liberate", just the land and resources. 

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2921 on: July 16, 2023, 10:32:AM »

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2922 on: July 16, 2023, 02:44:PM »
   What they would prefer to do and what the actual choices will be, with a metaphorical gun held to their head, is going to be decided by the Russian leadership. NATO/Ukraine have zero prospect of achieving any of their aims. The populace of the regions that they seek to "liberate" don't want "liberating" by Ukraine. You should question, but won't, who exactly the lands are to liberated for. The answer is Corporate and Financial interests. It isn't the inhabitants of those regions that NATO want to "liberate", just the land and resources.
But that's a separate debate about the role of capitalism in modern society. It's surely up to the Ukrainian people to decide their own fate, under free and fair elections under the auspices of OSCE.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2923 on: July 16, 2023, 05:01:PM »
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 05:10:PM by David1819 »

Offline gringo

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #2924 on: July 16, 2023, 07:45:PM »
But that's a separate debate about the role of capitalism in modern society. It's surely up to the Ukrainian people to decide their own fate, under free and fair elections under the auspices of OSCE.
   You should question, but won't, who exactly the lands are to liberated for. The answer is Corporate and Financial interests. It isn't the inhabitants of those regions that NATO want to "liberate", just the land and resources.
      Your post was in response to the above.

      There is a separate debate about the role of capitalism, Steve, I agree with that. In this instance though that question is also central to the morality of arming and funding the continuation of the slaughter. It is only Russia who are offering self determination to the people of each region. The Ukraine regime have already sold the economic rights of resources and land to the likes of Blackrock. Free and fair elections are not on their agenda and they make no secret of this.
      If your desire is free and fair elections then you are supporting the wrong side. The Ukrainians have openly stated this. Such as Kyrylo Budanov, Chief of Main Directorate of Intelligence of the Ukraine MOD. His words reported below;

  “The majority of the radical pro-Russian population, upon the arrival of Ukrainian units in Crimea through any form of advancement, be it offensive or otherwise, will promptly depart for the Russian Federation via the ferry crossing,” Budanov believes.
“No one will remain here.”

In response to inquiries regarding the crossing, Budanov dismissed the necessity of the Crimean Bridge.
“They will vacate this territory — they are not suicidal, believe me,” he said.


    Does that sound to you as if the intention is free and fair elections, Steve?
    It sounds like a threat of genocide to me.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 07:48:PM by gringo »