Author Topic: Fletcher's testimony  (Read 4954 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2015, 06:35:PM »
Are we becoming confused here. The short, last paragraph simply states that "A doctor who saw her three months after she left hospital and less than  three weeks prior to the murders................" -or words to that effect.

 The locum who gave her the reduced injection -I believe- moved on soon afterwards but even if she hadn't, to WHOM would she look to check up on Sheila because it seems that no one did any checks AFTER the last reduced injection,which is part of my gripe.

No I'm not confused I will put the "who" the various pronouns were referring to in parenthesis:

"I think it is referring to the one (doctor) who gave her the injection not her (Sheila's) regular doctor.  But if she (Sheila) appeared mentally unbalanced or complained about some mental issues she (the doctor) would have noted such not say she (Sheila) appeared quite well.  This though is another area where it would be nice if the full testimony were available to read."

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2015, 06:45:PM »
here is websters summary

It's merely a summary of his own speculations, particularly that it could have been a non-intimate blood mixture.  He failed to come up with any testing that could substantiate his speculation and worse when pushed by the judges, during a hearing, to come up with a way for the blood to not intimately mix he made the unsupported claim that blood had been deposited on cloth by 2 different sources and failed to mix together intimately.  Even if true those condition failed to apply to the case at hand he had no way for the blood to not intimately mix let alone any evidence to suggest that such could be misread.  He admitted he had no idea whether June's blood could mask Nevills and be misread he said he lacked the facilities to test his speculation.

His claim that the judge misrepresented the testimony of the lab personnel was rejected by the judges as false.

     
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2015, 06:56:PM »
It's merely a summary of his own speculations, particularly that it could have been a non-intimate blood mixture.  He failed to come up with any testing that could substantiate his speculation and worse when pushed by the judges, during a hearing, to come up with a way for the blood to not intimately mix he made the unsupported claim that blood had been deposited on cloth by 2 different sources and failed to mix together intimately.  Even if true those condition failed to apply to the case at hand he had no way for the blood to not intimately mix let alone any evidence to suggest that such could be misread.  He admitted he had no idea whether June's blood could mask Nevills and be misread he said he lacked the facilities to test his speculation.

His claim that the judge misrepresented the testimony of the lab personnel was rejected by the judges as false.

   

It would be, wouldn´t it.

I was waiting for this post from you, and lo and behold, here it is! I am practically a  psychic!  ;D

Offline Jan

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2015, 06:59:PM »
ha ha judges backing judges - dodgy handshakes? :o

could blood be trickled?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2015, 07:04:PM »
There was no great knowledge as to whether there was drawback or not. As far as I am concerned it was a gamble that paid off for those who wanted JB convicted. I repeat what I have believed from the very beginning. The silencer was faked evidence by those to whom it would benefit the most. They needed no great knowledge whatsoever. As a well known magician once said, "Scientists are the easiest people to fool".

The evidence that it was drawback was un-rebutted and thus effectively conceded by the defense- particularly with the defense contending June and Nevill's blood got inside while being shot.

Establishing who the blood belonged to was established by the prosecution int he following manner:

1) Sheila suffered a contact wound that would result in drawback. That means Sheila's blood would have to have been deposited in the muzzle of the rifle or the moderator if the moderator were attached to the rifle when the shot was fired
2) No blood was found int he rifle but blood consistent with Sheila's was found in the moderator
3) It is unlikely June and Nevill suffered any wounds that were contact wounds that could have resulted in drawback and the twins did not suffer any contact wounds that would result in drawback
4) visible blood was found on the first 5-7 baffles which was determined to be from one person and it was group A blood
5) a flake of blood from 1 person that was between baffles 1 and 2 was group A blood and also had enzyme AK1. 
6) June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's
7) AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present.  So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.

All of these things combined- the lack of a wound that would result in June's blood getting inside, the fact Sheila did have a wound that would result in drawback and that none was found in the rifle, the lack of AK2-1, etc all combined lead to the conclusion the group A blood found inside the moderator was Sheila's.

A competent advocate first makes the effort to FULLY understand the argument of the other side. Then makes an attempt to see if it is possible to rebut the arguments of the other side with competent evidence that can be marshalled.

You just gloss over the argument made at trial and say you don't want to believe it and you feel it means nothing.  That's not rebutting the evidence it is simply ignoring it. That accomplishes nothing in a debate.  It especially accomplishes nothing when someone was convicted upon the basis of the evidence and the only way to get the conviction vacated is to refute the evidence used at trial.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2015, 07:09:PM »
ha ha judges backing judges - dodgy handshakes? :o

could blood be trickled?

1) it is from the date Lincoln was at the lab so is either Lincoln's notes or was created by someone else in the defense. 

2) it denies trickling in could account for the depth of penetration and says that it is unlikely trickling in could even account for the blood at the inside tip of the moderator because there was not much blood on the face of the moderator.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2015, 07:17:PM »
The evidence that it was drawback was un-rebutted and thus effectively conceded by the defense- particularly with the defense contending June and Nevill's blood got inside while being shot.

Establishing who the blood belonged to was established by the prosecution int he following manner:

1) Sheila suffered a contact wound that would result in drawback. That means Sheila's blood would have to have been deposited in the muzzle of the rifle or the moderator if the moderator were attached to the rifle when the shot was fired

According to the following book on forensics. Drawback only occurs with contact wounds with high calibre weapons. The gun in this case is a low calibre weapon

http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781449602154

By (author) Henk Becker, By (author) Chaminade University Ronald F Becker, By (author) M. Criminal Justice Department University of Wisconsin-Platteville Aric W Dutelle


I have included the authors names above, so if you can please direct your upcoming rude novel criticising their work to them rather than me it would be much appreciated.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:17:PM by david1819 »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2015, 07:24:PM »
It would be, wouldn´t it.

I was waiting for this post from you, and lo and behold, here it is! I am practically a  psychic!  ;D

Well since the arguments of Jeremy supporters are a broken record and  this came up so many times the past 10 months alone it hardly takes a psychic to know the answer.  The fact is that the appellate  judges were right.  The judge did accurately summarize the arguments of the prosecution. No one here has been able to demonstrate otherwise.  The CCRC wasn't even swayed by such claim they didn't refer such matter to the COA the defense decided to tack on all the crap the CCRC didn't find persuasive just because they were not prevented from doing so.

The COA rejected the claim that the judge misrepresented the testimony by pointing out he did a verbatim read back of the testimony.  The COA was right he read the exact quote os how could he have misrepresented the testimony when he read it verbatim:



The proponent of a claim bears the burden of providing proof.  No evidence was provided by the defense to prove he misrepresented in his summing up and no one here has produced any evidence.  I could simply stop there and say the proponents failed to meet their burden.  Instead I went the extra mile and investigated the claim myself by actually looking at the summing up provision at the heart of the controversy.  As plain as day it contains exact quoting not paraphrasing so the claim his testimony was incorrectly paraphrased falls apart.  The only way to prove otherwise is to come up with a different quote that contradicts this but I have not seen any such quotes in any of the sources publicly available on his testimony and the defense has not been able to produce any such quotes...

 




Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Mr. Gee

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2015, 07:28:PM »
The evidence that it was drawback was un-rebutted and thus effectively conceded by the defense- particularly with the defense contending June and Nevill's blood got inside while being shot.

Establishing who the blood belonged to was established by the prosecution int he following manner:

1) Sheila suffered a contact wound that would result in drawback. That means Sheila's blood would have to have been deposited in the muzzle of the rifle or the moderator if the moderator were attached to the rifle when the shot was fired
2) No blood was found int he rifle but blood consistent with Sheila's was found in the moderator
3) It is unlikely June and Nevill suffered any wounds that were contact wounds that could have resulted in drawback and the twins did not suffer any contact wounds that would result in drawback
4) visible blood was found on the first 5-7 baffles which was determined to be from one person and it was group A blood
5) a flake of blood from 1 person that was between baffles 1 and 2 was group A blood and also had enzyme AK1. 
6) June and Sheila both have group A blood but Sheila has enzyme AK1 while June has enzyme AK2-1 so the flake was consistent with Sheila's blood not June's
7) AK2-1 is more hardy than AK1 and since the AK1 enzyme had not yet deteriorated that means had June's blood been present her AK2-1 enzymes would still have been present.  So this speaks against the blood on the baffles or the flake containing any of June's blood because there was no AK2-1 present and there should have been if her blood was present because AK2-1 takes longer to deteriorate than AK1 and AK1 was present.

All of these things combined- the lack of a wound that would result in June's blood getting inside, the fact Sheila did have a wound that would result in drawback and that none was found in the rifle, the lack of AK2-1, etc all combined lead to the conclusion the group A blood found inside the moderator was Sheila's.

A competent advocate first makes the effort to FULLY understand the argument of the other side. Then makes an attempt to see if it is possible to rebut the arguments of the other side with competent evidence that can be marshalled.

You just gloss over the argument made at trial and say you don't want to believe it and you feel it means nothing.  That's not rebutting the evidence it is simply ignoring it. That accomplishes nothing in a debate.  It especially accomplishes nothing when someone was convicted upon the basis of the evidence and the only way to get the conviction vacated is to refute the evidence used at trial.
I haven't just "glossed" over it as you suggest in an attempt to diminish my argument. (1) it was never tested that back spatter did actually occur. It was just assumed that it would have occurred. And (2) Back spatter does not always occur. I will also include a third point here (3) The fact that they also said there was no gun shot residue on Sheila was a deliberate lie as if she was shot at close range and that gun shot residue is emitted from the barrel of the gun then there must have been gunshot residue on her. So the fact that they did not say this but rather said that there was insufficient gun shot residue on her is an indication that they were also wrong on the other observations. If you bother to read up on it yourself and I should assume that you are intelligent enough and actually know this as being fact, that back spatter does not always occur even with a close or contact shot neither does drawback. Why you are not stating this I do not know?

Mr. Gee

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2015, 07:32:PM »
According to the following book on forensics. Drawback only occurs with contact wounds with high calibre weapons. The gun in this case is a low calibre weapon

http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781449602154

By (author) Henk Becker, By (author) Chaminade University Ronald F Becker, By (author) M. Criminal Justice Department University of Wisconsin-Platteville Aric W Dutelle


I have included the authors names above, so if you can please direct your upcoming rude novel criticising their work to them rather than me it would be much appreciated.
Sub sonic ammunition was also used and not the supersonic ammunition that was also present at the house. In fact thinking about it, if Bamber was the murderer it would have been logical for him to use supersonic ammunition as it would have killed more efficiently.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:34:PM by Mr. Gee »

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2015, 07:36:PM »
According to the following book on forensics. Drawback only occurs with contact wounds with high calibre weapons. The gun in this case is a low calibre weapon

http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781449602154

By (author) Henk Becker, By (author) Chaminade University Ronald F Becker, By (author) M. Criminal Justice Department University of Wisconsin-Platteville Aric W Dutelle


I have included the authors names above, so if you can please direct your upcoming rude novel criticising their work to them rather than me it would be much appreciated.

I doubt you paid for the book.  At any rate even if it makes that claim it is wrong.  What is the source of the evidence they use to support it because neither of the authors have any medical expertise or gun expertise.

You need evidence from experts and the experts say 22 caliber weapons can cause both drawback and backspatter.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2015, 07:38:PM »
I haven't seen lebaleb's suggestion, I thought we were talking about the possibilty of faking the silencer which I made quite clear in my former post.

Your former post misunderstood my former post; which I made clear in my former post  :P
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:39:PM by Caroline »
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Mr. Gee

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2015, 07:39:PM »
I doubt you paid for the book.  At any rate even if it makes that claim it is wrong.  What is the source of the evidence they use to support it because neither of the authors have any medical expertise or gun expertise.

You need evidence from experts and the experts say 22 caliber weapons can cause both drawback and backspatter.
But they equally will not. The plain facts are it was never tested and as far as I know it hasn't been tested to this day?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2015, 07:42:PM »
If the experts have it wrong then what chance have we got in understanding it all. Its the same with the jury, they did not understand it all either.  If there is arguments within the scientists that did the tests and how they did the tests, then we still in my opinion do not have a clear enough answer.

Was Sheila's blood found in the silencer? It might be or could be or its likely is not an answer...I'd like a yes or no...the other answers are unsafe.   :-\ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Possibly!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Jane

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Re: Fletcher's testimony
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2015, 07:45:PM »
Sub sonic ammunition was also used and not the supersonic ammunition that was also present at the house. In fact thinking about it, if Bamber was the murderer it would have been logical for him to use supersonic ammunition as it would have killed more efficiently.


Jeremy MAY have done but to do that would likely have made it LOOK as if Jeremy had, which wasn't the plan.