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[scipio_usmc]

No they wouldn't - people have killed other people because they have been so angry they couldn't help themselves. Just because someone punches a wall or puts there hand through a window, doesn't make them a self-harmer and there is NO EVIDENCE that Sheila was a self-harmer!!

I put my fist through a window once and it wasn't on purpose.  I was locked out of the store after walking someone to her car and punched the window to try to get attention of the night crew chief.  I didn't expect the window to break.  Colin didn't go into enough detail about the alleged window incident to evaluate things fairly but nothing about it suggests she did it with the intent to cut herself.

[Jane]

I've read that Sheila was a self-harmer.Injuring themselves makes them feel better.  It's in one of the doctors testimonies.

If we are to assume that cutting was her method of choice for self harming, where were the scars to prove it? Putting her hand through a window ONCE doesn't make anyone a self harmer.

[maggie]

Isn't it interesting, the different ways in which we all see Sheila. I wonder who she was really.

I don't believe she was looking forward to a happy life with the family. Not the English one, anyway. I think, when her biological mother left she took with her all Sheila's hopes of what might have been and she may have been left with what was. Certainly, she seems to have accepted religion but I suspect more to please June than herself. I get the feeling that she may have had to work very hard at pleasing June and may even have tried to persuade the boys to do the same.

I can't go along with Jeremy having a mental illness. I'll settle for personality disorder, though.

IMO Jeremy would have had to have had a severe personality disorder to do what he did and then coolsy stand outside the farmhouse that night.  I have never seen any mention of juvenile delinquency or violence etc. which is the normal history of someone with such a disorder.

[Jan]

Patti called my earlier post 'utter rubbish' and Lookout just claimed the call wasn't important. Clearly some people are either trying to play the importance down or they just don't understand it. Oh and I'm not shouting - I'm not even talking, I'm typing.

fine I take it back if that was your interpretation of her post .

And we are all just typing but usually exclamation marks are for the full effect

so there!!!!!!

[scipio_usmc]

Isn't it interesting, the different ways in which we all see Sheila. I wonder who she was really.

I don't believe she was looking forward to a happy life with the family. Not the English one, anyway. I think, when her biological mother left she took with her all Sheila's hopes of what might have been and she may have been left with what was. Certainly, she seems to have accepted religion but I suspect more to please June than herself. I get the feeling that she may have had to work very hard at pleasing June and may even have tried to persuade the boys to do the same.

I can't go along with Jeremy having a mental illness. I'll settle for personality disorder, though.

I don't particularly care what people say about her. I pay attention to the pertinent issues regarding her her body and to a lesser degree her medication. She could have been the worst person in the world but if the evidence proves she didn't kill herself or anyone else then it would still make no difference how horrible she was. Some people seem to want to not pay attention to the evidence that matters and instead evaluate this case based on their perceptions of Jeremy and Sheila.  It's not a valid basis to evaluate the case but worse those perceptions are largely shaped by innuendo.

I don't see any way to get enough info to accurately evaluate what they were like in full and see no reason to even bother to try to look for such information because it is not relevant to the issue of guilt.

[Jane]

True but there are many other ways of self harming such as drug taking.  Violent temper tantrums are a common side effect or symptom of schizophrenia.

They could also be the result of living with a man who doesn't earn a regular wage, can't pay the bills causing them to rely on the parents Sheila may have liked to be more independent of, AND cheats if the going gets too rough for him.

[maggie]

They could also be the result of living with a man who doesn't earn a regular wage, can't pay the bills causing them to rely on the parents Sheila may have liked to be more independent of, AND cheats if the going gets too rough for him.

True.

[lookout]

If we are to assume that cutting was her method of choice for self harming, where were the scars to prove it? Putting her hand through a window ONCE doesn't make anyone a self harmer.

It was from reading about the scar to one of her hands that I realised it must have been the window fiasco.

We don't yet know of any other injury that she's put herself through.

[Caroline]

fine I take it back if that was your interpretation of her post .

And we are all just typing but usually exclamation marks are for the full effect

so there!!!!!!

People get offended by caps, now by exclamation marks - perhaps people shouldn't take posts they don't agree with 'personally. Use as many as you like - I promise, I won't even flinch!

[John]

It was from reading about the scar to one of her hands that I realised it must have been the window fiasco.

We don't yet know of any other injury that she's put herself through.

With evidence like that Jeremy is sure to be released by the summer.

[Jan]

l would ask them - have things changed since the 80s?

Imagine you lived in a country which last year had 3,000 allegations of police corruption. Worse, imagine that of these 3,000 allegations only half of them were properly investigated — because for police officers in this country, corruption was becoming routine. Imagine that the police increasingly used their powers to crack down not on criminals but on anyone who dared speak out against them. What sort of a country is this? Well, it’s Britain I’m afraid — where what was once the finest, most honest service in the world is in danger of becoming rotten.

Some of this was revealed in a little-noticed report by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary, which went on to deliver some even more shocking news. Nearly half of 17,200 officers and staff surveyed said that if they discovered corruption among their colleagues and chose to report it, they didn’t believe their evidence would be treated in confidence and would fear ‘adverse consequences’. This appalling lack of protection for whistle-blowers — often amounting to persecution — has become commonplace throughout the public services and creates a climate in which dishonesty and malpractice flourish.

The second report, compiled by the Serious Organised Crime Agency, bears this out. It says there has been a sharp increase over the past five years in the number of police officers dealing heroin, cocaine and amphetamines and an equally startling rise in the number of officers abusing their power ‘for sexual gratification’ — in other words bullying or cajoling suspects, witnesses and even victims into having sex with them.

Just this week, in fact, it emerged that the Met suspended 73 coppers, community support officers and other staff on corruption charges in the past two years. They cited drug crimes, bribery, theft, fraud, sexual misconduct and — everybody’s favourite — un-authorised disclosure of information. Eleven were convicted in court, but what happened to the others? The Met spokesman said rather blandly that some were allowed to resign or retire (presumably with full pension rights) and some were dismissed

[Caroline]

IMO Jeremy would have had to have had a severe personality disorder to do what he did and then coolsy stand outside the farmhouse that night.  I have never seen any mention of juvenile delinquency or violence etc. which is the normal history of someone with such a disorder.

Not all psychopaths show signs of violence. But Jeremy has been described as a tease and a bully at school, he stole money from his family business and sold drugs.

[gringo]

They abound but in this particular instance you are assuming the phone call was realistically possible though the evidence says otherwise. Instead of evaluating the evidence to see whether it is realistically possible you simply assume it is ad assume there is a 50/50 chance either way.

   Are you being ironic deliberately?
    You criticise people for supposedly making assumptions yet you assume that Patti assumes a 50/50 possibility either way. Where does Patti claim that it is a 50/50  chance? Are you just assuming that she does because you have no real examples of Patti's assumptions?
    You also assume that Patti has not evaluated the evidence, based only on the fact that she disagrees with your own assumptions.
    The assumption that the phone call was possible is reasonable and a long winded biased diatribe from scipio does not change anything.

[scipio_usmc]

It was from reading about the scar to one of her hands that I realised it must have been the window fiasco.

We don't yet know of any other injury that she's put herself through.

You have no idea how she got any of her scars.

I broke a giant window and don't have a scar from the cuts.  I don't have any scars on my hands from any the fights I was involved in either though they got cut on teeth and other things.  The only scar on my hand was obtained from the metal rails of a banker's box cutting me. So instead of scar with a cool story behind it, I got my most noticeable scar while getting something from a file. 

[David1819]

IMO Jeremy would have had to have had a severe personality disorder to do what he did and then coolsy stand outside the farmhouse that night.  I have never seen any mention of juvenile delinquency or violence etc. which is the normal history of someone with such a disorder.

Apparently Brett Collins said Jeremy was molested when he was 11 years old at Gresham boarding school. Children who get sexually abused specialy males are known to develop personality disorder later on in life