Author Topic: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge  (Read 37962 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #180 on: February 23, 2015, 04:16:PM »
Nope.

If you want to believe he was set up without any evidence to establish it that is your business, it demonstrates though her point of your position being emotionally based.  It is false hope to believe he will be pardoned without credible evidence to establish he was set up.  Hopefully you can live with your hope not being realized.
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Offline Jan

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #181 on: February 23, 2015, 05:07:PM »
But no one has PROVED that call did not happen.

It could have happened.

He never mentioned any shots or anyone being injured at the time.

Considering the amount of discussion about was the phone off the hook. Did he make another call. Would it have been engaged? Did JB pick up the phone at the other end ? Did his answer machine register it? how could the police listen in? Could they have traced the call at all? What records would have been kept by BT etc etc etc

Then because of all the talk about the above he must have been very clever to work out EXACTLY what would happen - and when it boils down to it if the police had gone straight in then it would have been obvious the crime had been committed a few hours before and therefore he would have had no alibi.

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #182 on: February 23, 2015, 05:14:PM »
If you want to believe he was set up without any evidence to establish it that is your business, it demonstrates though her point of your position being emotionally based.  It is false hope to believe he will be pardoned without credible evidence to establish he was set up.  Hopefully you can live with your hope not being realized.





I'm afraid it's too easy to admit that it was a set-up,and I don't do easy.
I've already previously explained what went on that caused a flood of people calling it a set up. It wasn't. Without being " emotionally biased " ( a stupid thought ) it was EP's crackpot way of turning the case around from a murder/suicide to a murder of all the family. Two entirely different set-ups from the same force who conducted the investigation. The only difference being,that we haven't got the original files from when " Taff " Jones was first appointed to attend.
As soon as " Taff " was removed from the case ?? things started going awry,as I reckon that the officers present had bitten off more than they could chew and my belief was that they were relieved to get help from the relatives to lighten the load of what appeared to EP a state of confusion because they literally couldn't find a thing that tied Jeremy with the murders.
It was sheer incompetence by EP to have allowed the relatives a free rein instead of the officers doing what should have been,their job.

Could anyone see that happening today ?

Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #183 on: February 23, 2015, 05:30:PM »
But no one has PROVED that call did not happen.

It could have happened.

He never mentioned any shots or anyone being injured at the time.

Considering the amount of discussion about was the phone off the hook. Did he make another call. Would it have been engaged? Did JB pick up the phone at the other end ? Did his answer machine register it? how could the police listen in? Could they have traced the call at all? What records would have been kept by BT etc etc etc

Then because of all the talk about the above he must have been very clever to work out EXACTLY what would happen - and when it boils down to it if the police had gone straight in then it would have been obvious the crime had been committed a few hours before and therefore he would have had no alibi.

He said he got a phone so as to distance himself from the crime scene. Just saying he was home and knew nothing isn't much of an alibi, so he makes up a story that his father called when it all kicked off. In order to strengthen this 'notion', he leaves the phone off the hook at WHF. Scene set, line baited - hooked in; and so they were ......... initially. However, it's all pretty contrived and I guess EP came to realise that.

Jeremy fed information about guns and people going crazy banking on them not going in. However, why police know that he had no alibi? If they hadn't been dead long at that point, He could just as easily have claimed that Sheila must have shot them all straight after his fathers call. Time of death pin pointing, isn't that accurate.
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Offline Jan

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #184 on: February 23, 2015, 05:44:PM »
He said he got a phone so as to distance himself from the crime scene. Just saying he was home and knew nothing isn't much of an alibi, so he makes up a story that his father called when it all kicked off. In order to strengthen this 'notion', he leaves the phone off the hook at WHF. Scene set, line baited - hooked in; and so they were ......... initially. However, it's all pretty contrived and I guess EP came to realise that.

Jeremy fed information about guns and people going crazy banking on them not going in. However, why police know that he had no alibi? If they hadn't been dead long at that point, He could just as easily have claimed that Sheila must have shot them all straight after his fathers call. Time of death pin pointing, isn't that accurate.
then they could have gone in within  say 40 mins or less if they had got their finger out - and they would expect blood still running from all wounds and no sign of rigor. And now we are attributing JB with knowledge of how Time of Death would have been decided. And I still think EP  had the knowledge/personnel at their disposal  how to do that, they just did not do it.

I think if you think he was guilty and fitted up - why would they need to do that? You would think they would have sufficient evidence somewhere.

BTW - let me make it quite clear if something turns up that

PROVES the call did not happen
PROVES the moderator is not a red herring
The experts start agreeing on the forensic and ballistic evidence - not happened so far -
Then I am quite willing to accept his guilt - But at the moment all I see is contrasting expert opinions.
And JM evidence looks simply contrived to me - If EP coached her to "get their man" then it could be justified? But only if they knew 100% he did it , and so far I can not see they had the competence to be that sure

IMO(:

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #185 on: February 23, 2015, 05:57:PM »
But no one has PROVED that call did not happen.

It could have happened.

He never mentioned any shots or anyone being injured at the time.

Considering the amount of discussion about was the phone off the hook. Did he make another call. Would it have been engaged? Did JB pick up the phone at the other end ? Did his answer machine register it? how could the police listen in? Could they have traced the call at all? What records would have been kept by BT etc etc etc

Then because of all the talk about the above he must have been very clever to work out EXACTLY what would happen - and when it boils down to it if the police had gone straight in then it would have been obvious the crime had been committed a few hours before and therefore he would have had no alibi.

How is there a realistic possibility the phone call happened?

1) Julie stated that Jeremy planned in advance to say he received a phone call from WHF to provide himself with an alibi and admitted he was responsible for the murders and framed Sheila.

2) Julie's claims are supported by evidence including evidence that proves Sheila didn't load the gun and wield it so why would would Nevill call Jeremy to claim she did so let alone call to claim she did so and ask Jeremy to come help?

3) Even if she had the gun it would make no sense to call Jeremy.  There would be only 2 reasons to call Jeremy- 1) if Jeremy had a better rapport with Sheila than Nevill did and thus to ask Jeremy to come help calm her down or 2) if Sheila were too strong for Nevill to overpower but Jeremy was strong enough to do so and thus he would ask Jeremy for help.  Neither of these are the case.

4) If Nevill were too scared to disarm Sheila by hand why would he call his son to ask his son to also be in harms way?  Moreover, if scared to do so by hand then he could have used one of the multitude of weapons available to confront her.  The kitchen was loaded with knives, guns and less lethal weapons to choose from and if he had access to the phone then he would have the ability to access those weapons.   

5) It is neither realistic that June would stay in bed through the commotion nor that Nevill would be left alone in the kitchen by Sheila where he could access the phone and weapons.

6) There is no realistic way Nevill would have gotten to the phone prior to any shooting.  It is quite clear that the initial shooting that took place was in the bedroom against the parents.  The suggestion by various supporters during the course of the appeal that the first victims were the boys and then the parents woke up and were attacked is not credible.  That would mean the gun had only 2 bullets left and Sheila would have been overpowered before she could load again had that been the case.   Nor is it credible that Sheila would take the phone from his hand and hand it up then immediately take it back off the hook and march him upstairs so she could shoot him.  She would have shot him upon finding him on the phone.  It is very clear the killer went in the master bedroom and shot both parents killing June but not Nevill.  After the gun was empty either Nevill fled to the kitchen with the killer in pursuit or the killer fled to the kitchen with Nevill in pursuit.  They struggled in the kitchen, Nevill was beaten unconscious then the killer reloaded and killed him.  The killer reloaded fully then killed the boys and Sheila and the gun was empty. There was no occasion for a phone call.

7) Other evidence establishes Jeremy tried to frame his sister.  He tried to frame her with the phony story about leaving the gun and bullets out (which he clearly staged because he left too many bullets out for his story to be true), by lying to the initial responders telling them she was proficient with all the guns in the house, and other similar lies including telling Colin that the family was forcing Sheila to give up custody of the boys. He even lied about calling police before Julie which is very damning because had he actually received the call claimed he would have either rushed over or called 999.  Knowing this he lied and said he called police right away but in fact he called Julie before police.

It is his word alone that a call was made and there is no reason at all to believe his word in light of all the above evidence.  The notion that a third party got Nevill to call Jeremy and finger Sheila is absurd.  If Sheila didn't kill everyone then the call was clearly made up and Jeremy was the killer.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 06:41:PM by scipio_usmc »
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Mr. Gee

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #186 on: February 23, 2015, 06:31:PM »
If the phone call didn't happen - Jeremy is guilty - Oh sorry, you're not really concerned about that! The only reason the crime scene was handled as it was, was because Jeremy had everyone thinking his father called him and that Sheila had gone crazy with a gun. They thought it was a murder/suicide because that's what Jeremy fed them. However, I'm sure you're not concerned with that either! Jeremy is where his is because of his own devices and because he wasn't half as clever as he thought he was!
Ah! I see, you have descended to the depths of misquoting me and then criticising me for something I didn't say. The reason I said ,
Quote
" My opinion does not only rely upon whether a phone call did or did not happen, or upon whether he knew how much was in his fathers wallet."
was because that telephone call could of happened or could not have happened depending on what "belief" you choose to take, not that I was not concerned about it.
I am concerned about it because it is so easy to reject that it happened just on the whim that you don't believe it. In other words it is so easy to say that Bamber is guilty just by saying that the phone call never happen.
Now I don't know how justice works in your head. But in our court system a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. But if that court chooses to dismiss a piece of evidence because it does nt fit into their chosen scenario then in my mind that systen has ceased to be just. As far as I am conce3rned the prosecution did not succeed in "proving" the phone call didn't happen. I remember when you used to believe this yourself Caroline. But now you appear to be content to reject certain evidence just because you have changed you mind from innocent to guilty.
Yet I fond it rather strange that you believe the silencer evidence to be a set-up. But at the same time fail to follow the consequences of believing that through. For the silencer evidence was one of the mainstays of the prosecution's case and was definitely instrumental in bringing in a guilty verdict.

Mr. Gee

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #187 on: February 23, 2015, 06:32:PM »
He said he got a phone so as to distance himself from the crime scene. Just saying he was home and knew nothing isn't much of an alibi, so he makes up a story that his father called when it all kicked off. In order to strengthen this 'notion', he leaves the phone off the hook at WHF. Scene set, line baited - hooked in; and so they were ......... initially. However, it's all pretty contrived and I guess EP came to realise that.

Jeremy fed information about guns and people going crazy banking on them not going in. However, why police know that he had no alibi? If they hadn't been dead long at that point, He could just as easily have claimed that Sheila must have shot them all straight after his fathers call. Time of death pin pointing, isn't that accurate.
That is just your own opinion built upon the assumption that the telephone call didn't happen.

Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #188 on: February 23, 2015, 07:05:PM »
then they could have gone in within  say 40 mins or less if they had got their finger out - and they would expect blood still running from all wounds and no sign of rigor. And now we are attributing JB with knowledge of how Time of Death would have been decided. And I still think EP  had the knowledge/personnel at their disposal  how to do that, they just did not do it.

I think if you think he was guilty and fitted up - why would they need to do that? You would think they would have sufficient evidence somewhere.

BTW - let me make it quite clear if something turns up that

PROVES the call did not happen
PROVES the moderator is not a red herring
The experts start agreeing on the forensic and ballistic evidence - not happened so far -
Then I am quite willing to accept his guilt - But at the moment all I see is contrasting expert opinions.
And JM evidence looks simply contrived to me - If EP coached her to "get their man" then it could be justified? But only if they knew 100% he did it , and so far I can not see they had the competence to be that sure

IMO(:

No, I'm not attributing anything to him - I'm no expert but I know that even now it's not possible to determin and exact time of death but if I were planning to kill someone (which I never would), it's one of the things I'd check out. I'm sure they did have crime TV then - things like Columbo would give you some pretty basic knowledge. But it's not something that's difficult to find out.

Why would they need to fit him up? To make sure he didn't walk - guess you can never have enough evidence.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #189 on: February 23, 2015, 07:06:PM »
That is just your own opinion built upon the assumption that the telephone call didn't happen.

Well, to be fair, it's not just my opinion or Jeremy wouldn't have been convicted.
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Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #190 on: February 23, 2015, 07:21:PM »
Well, to be fair, it's not just my opinion or Jeremy wouldn't have been convicted.





I'm sure logged/timed telephone calls would have been the last thing on Jeremy's mind at that time.

Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #191 on: February 23, 2015, 08:25:PM »




I'm sure logged/timed telephone calls would have been the last thing on Jeremy's mind at that time.

Oh, I think he was banking on it being logged! As for the times, he should have had a better memory, you need one when you don't tell the truth!
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Offline Caroline

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #192 on: February 23, 2015, 08:33:PM »
Ah! I see, you have descended to the depths of misquoting me and then criticising me for something I didn't say. The reason I said , was because that telephone call could of happened or could not have happened depending on what "belief" you choose to take, not that I was not concerned about it.
I am concerned about it because it is so easy to reject that it happened just on the whim that you don't believe it. In other words it is so easy to say that Bamber is guilty just by saying that the phone call never happen.
Now I don't know how justice works in your head. But in our court system a man is considered innocent until proven guilty. But if that court chooses to dismiss a piece of evidence because it does nt fit into their chosen scenario then in my mind that systen has ceased to be just. As far as I am conce3rned the prosecution did not succeed in "proving" the phone call didn't happen. I remember when you used to believe this yourself Caroline. But now you appear to be content to reject certain evidence just because you have changed you mind from innocent to guilty.
Yet I fond it rather strange that you believe the silencer evidence to be a set-up. But at the same time fail to follow the consequences of believing that through. For the silencer evidence was one of the mainstays of the prosecution's case and was definitely instrumental in bringing in a guilty verdict.

You certainly don't remember me believing the phone call, what you remember is me 'making excuses' because I believed him to be innocent for other reason (namely the silencer evidence being fake). I tried to convince myself that the phone call happened but (and I have mentioned it many times), I ALWAYS had a problem with it. The difference between the silencer and the phone Grahame, is that Jeremy himself claimed it happened which means that if it didn't (and I don't believe it did), he's guilty of killing five people. If the silencer was faked it still doesn't mean Jeremy is innocent - it just means he didn't use a silencer.
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Offline Jan

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #193 on: February 23, 2015, 08:42:PM »
And I guess that would open up another can of worms. Was it ever right for the police to
falsify evidence
coach witnesses
Change documents
withhold evidence.

to get their man?

we know they did it in the 80s.

Offline lookout

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Re: submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge
« Reply #194 on: February 23, 2015, 08:46:PM »
Oh, I think he was banking on it being logged! As for the times, he should have had a better memory, you need one when you don't tell the truth!




I think if he'd been too precise I'd have been suspicious.