submit questions for the Essex Police Challenge

[Caroline]

I'd have seen the evidence if there'd been any. This is why I asked the question.

To be fair Lookout, Scipio has just told you what the evidence was/is, whether you chose to accept it or not is another story but you asked the question.

[lookout]

To be fair Lookout, Scipio has just told you what the evidence was/is, whether you chose to accept it or not is another story but you asked the question.

I won't even acknowledge his posts when he kicks off in insulting mode.

[Caroline]

I won't even acknowledge his posts when he kicks off in insulting mode.

Here you go Lookout - without the insults.


"The forensic evidence establishes Sheila didn't load a gun, didn't fire a gun, didn't beat anyone, didn't kill anyone else and didn't kill herself."

[scipio_usmc]

Here you go Lookout - without the insults.


"The forensic evidence establishes Sheila didn't load a gun, didn't fire a gun, didn't beat anyone, didn't kill anyone else and didn't kill herself."

Thanks for trying though I doubt it will work.

But yes the forensic evidence merely proves Sheila (and the other victims) didn't do it but rather someone who left the scene did it.  The forensic evidence alone doesn't establish the identity of the person(s) who did it and left the scene.  Circumstantial evidence and testimonial evidence from Julie established the killer was Jeremy.

If lookout wants to try refuting the forensic evidence she can do so to her heart's content but just saying it doesn't exist doesn't accomplish such. 

[Mr. Gee]

To be fair Lookout, Scipio has just told you what the evidence was/is, whether you chose to accept it or not is another story but you asked the question.

Erm, no. He has just given his opinion of what he thinks the forensic evidence shows. I don't think he is right. Taking also into consideration that there is absolutely no forensic evidence that puts JB at the crime scene at the time of the murders.

[lookout]

Yes,I think I'm entitled to my own personal opinion without the need for any prompting from someone who thinks he's right ALL the time.

[scipio_usmc]

Erm, no. He has just given his opinion of what he thinks the forensic evidence shows. I don't think he is right. Taking also into consideration that there is absolutely no forensic evidence that puts JB at the crime scene at the time of the murders.

It is what the experts at trial said the evidence shows which to this day has not been successfully rebutted by the defense.

[Mr. Gee]

It is what the experts at trial said the evidence shows which to this day has not been successfully rebutted by the defense.

Do you have the trial transcript that depicts the experts testimonies at hand?

[Caroline]

Erm, no. He has just given his opinion of what he thinks the forensic evidence shows. I don't think he is right. Taking also into consideration that there is absolutely no forensic evidence that puts JB at the crime scene at the time of the murders.

And that's your opinion. However, there was no gun residue found on Sheila and to have fired the rifle around 25 times it's highly unlikely that there would be no gun residue on her hands and clothes.

[Mr. Gee]

And that's your opinion. However, there was no gun residue found on Sheila and to have fired the rifle around 25 times it's highly unlikely that there would be no gun residue on her hands and clothes.

Which of course is very strange, as most of the residue is expelled from the muzzle end of the gun. If that is so and it IS so then it is logical that Sheila could not fail to get residue on her. So forgive me in thinking that they were not being very truthful on that one.

[guest154]

Apparently it was written in Anne Eatons notes - her words that DB said to her .

Whether someone wants to search it out is up to you but that is the source - allegedly

I've just had a good luck and I can't find it. There is a lot though so will carry on.

The first mention I found for it was in 2011.

Ann Eaton notes - David told me he had got something up his sleeve

What did David Boutflour mean when he told Ann that "he had got something up his sleeve" when Jeremy was trying to get sureties for bail when he was first arrested? How odd, that these comments should be made around the time the silencer was handed over to Essex police by Ann Eaton on 11th September 1985?

What did Ann Eaton, think her brother meant?

But not backed up by any document.

[Caroline]

I've just had a good luck and I can't find it. There is a lot though so will carry on.

The first mention I found for it was in 2011.

But not backed up by any document.

Cheers for that Mat - according to Mike's post, it was said (if it was said) after Jeremy was arrested anyway.

[scipio_usmc]

Which of course is very strange, as most of the residue is expelled from the muzzle end of the gun. If that is so and it IS so then it is logical that Sheila could not fail to get residue on her. So forgive me in thinking that they were not being very truthful on that one.

1) you are ignoring that PGSR and soot are expelled through the ejection port and vents (those holes adjacent to the ejection port which exist for gases and PGSR to escape through).  That is how the shooter gets PGSR and soot on their hands and clothing and after 25 shots would have a good amount on them.  Hugging the weapon as she fired would have resulted in PGSR and soot on her gown.

This photo is from the photo section of this website



2) you are ignoring that her fatal wound was a soft contact wound so how would GSR get on her clothing if it was propelled directly into her wound? 

Her not-fatal wound was determined to be either a soft contact wound or close contact which means the distance between the barrel and her neck was not much so the unburned gunpowder would go mostly in and around the wound.  Unburned powder gets less concentrated the further the gun is fired from the victim.  Use a flashlight to simulate it.  Stick the flashlight against the wall to simulate a contact wound.  Now move it away.  The further away the bigger circle on the wall.  It would have to be fired at a good distance for the cone of unburned gunpowder to extend to her gown when shot in the neck.  She wasn't shot from far enough away for that to happen.  Had she been shot from far enough away for unburned powder to get on her gown from either shot then that would be ABSOLUTE proof she was murdered because her arms are not long enough to hold the gun that far away.   



 
In case you can't read the print it states:

"A loose contact wound results when the muzzle end of the weapon is not pressed firmly against the body, but instead is held loosely in contact with the body at the moment of discharge.  Such wounds are characterized by a wide, yet desne, deposit of soot encircling the central perforation, and the absense of significant searing, obvious muzzle imprint, or significant powder tattooing.  If powder tattooing is present, the tattoo marks or grains of gunpowder are usually within the ring of soot."

"By definition, near contact gunshot wounds occur when the muzzle of the weapon is held near, but not in contact with, the body surface, and yet close enough that significant powder tattooing does not occur."


A photo of sooting:

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUN004.html

[lookout]

Cheers for that Mat - according to Mike's post, it was said (if it was said) after Jeremy was arrested anyway.

Do you know what,if we went through all the " if it was saids ",there wouldn't be a case because the majority of evidence was on hearsay anyway.

[lookout]

I've already said why there was little or no residue.It was because the bullets were copper-plated.