Author Topic: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent  (Read 12392 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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1) Even though it was getting dark out and Jeremy was in the kitchen with the lights on (lighting reflects off windows and makes it more difficult to see outdoors when it is getting dark) he somehow managed to detect rabbits at quite a distance and though Jeremy was against shooting animals and was not known to ever have shot any animals before, he decided to get his gun to shoot at the rabbits instead of running out and chasing them away. 

2) Even though the last known user of the gun put it away with the moderator and scope attached and all witnesses except Jeremy say Nevill had no reason to remove the scope and moderator and would not have done so he did so and thus Jeremy found the gun without the scope and moderator. 

3) Jeremy decided there wasn’t enough time to attach the moderator and scope because the rabbits might leave so didn’t bother to take them.  He grabbed a full or near full box of ammo and the gun, removed the magazine from the gun and set the gun down near the rear door. Instead of loading the magazine there he returned to the kitchen, dumped out the bullets near the phone and loaded the magazine where Sheila was nearby so she had a full view of what he was doing.  Then he went back to the gun, inserted the magazine, chambered a round and went out to shoot the rabbits but they were gone already.

4) Instead of putting the gun away he removed the magazine, removed the round that had been in the chamber and put it back in the magazine and left the gun and loaded magazine on the table or the settle depending upon which account of his you go by.  June and Nevill fail to put the gun and loaded magazine away or bullets spilled by the phone away even though the grandkids were over and June subsequently used the phone that the bullets were next to.

5) Even though Sheila was over sedated thus tired and going to bed early, had never been violent towards anyone during an episode and had never before had an episode except when she stopped her medication, and despite being on her medication she had an episode late at night and to have become violent.

6) Sheila had to picked up the gun and figured out how to operate the weapon including how to insert the magazine and figured out both that she needed to manually chamber the first round and how to chamber it though she never saw anyone use a semi-auto before and at most saw people use shotguns which would not even mean she would know how to load and use a shotgun let along a gun that operates differently. 

7) Sheila had to have gone to the closet to get the moderator out and attached it on her own.

8) Sheila had to have woken up her parents raging with a gun and June had to have stayed in bed while Nevill decided to deal with the situation.

9) Sheila for some reason had to have decided not to kill her parents right away but instead decided to run around with the gun ranting and to somehow give Nevill at least several minutes alone in the kitchen

10) Nevill had to have been unable to calm her down like he always had been able to do in the past, had to have decided not to arm himself with any of the guns, knives or other weapons available in the kitchen, had to have decided not to try to disarm her himself even though she would not know she needed to chamber a round let alone how and though he was stronger than her or Jeremy he decided to have Jeremy come to disarm her though Jeremy would make things worse because she didn’t get along with him and even though Jeremy had an answering machine and his phone was far from his bedroom so his answering machine would pick up even if he actually managed to wake up. Nevill had to have decided time was not of the essence and that there would be time for Jeremy to arrive and find a way in before Sheila did anything.

11)  Somehow Jeremy had to have woken up fast enough to run down to his phone and pick it up before it went to his answering machine

12) After receiving the call from Nevill Jeremy decided not to rushing over or calling 999 like a rational person in his place would do but instead decided to do nothing at first, then called Julie and finally to call police but instead of dialing 999 to look up 2 different stations.  Then he lied to police and claimed he called them right away though he actually called Julie first despite it not making any sense.

13) Sheila had to have decided not to kill Nevill upon discovering him on the phone but instead chose to hang up the phone and leave it off the hook so no one could call.  Nevill had to have decided not to take advantage of her being so close with only 1 hand on the gun (thus a golden opportunity to disarm her) and then she had to have marched him upstairs because she wanted to kill her parents together in the same room.

14) After shooting them in the bedroom they went into the kitchen where Sheila had to have managed to beat Nevill unconscious without without injuring her feet on the glass on the kitchen floor and had to have been wearing gloves while doing so because unless she was wearing gloves her prints would have been in the blood on the rifle and her hand would have been wounded when the stock broke.

15) After shooting Nevill in the kitchen Sheila had to have decided to stop using the ammo supply in the kitchen and though 30 bullets remained there to go to the closet to get 5-7 additional rounds to use.

16) After killing everyone Sheila had to have hidden the bloody gloves for no rational reason and police either never found them or for no rational reason concealed the fact they found them.

17) After that Sheila had to have removed the moderator and put it back in the closet.

18) Sheila had to have either have miraculously not gotten any victim blood impact spatter blood on her clothing or after murdering everyone she changed her clothing for no rational reason, hid her clothing for no rational reason and police either failed to find such
clothing or found it but concealed the fact they found it.

19) Sheila had to have fired the first shot into her neck while seated propped against something holding the gun virtually level at her neck at non-contact range though her arms would be too short to hold the gun in such manner.

20) Within seconds of firing the first shot Sheila had to have fired the second shot while seated propped up against something and then after the fatal shot was delivered to have somehow managed not to die instantly and instead to have miraculously survived long enough to move her body flat and place the gun across her body

21) Sheila had to have miraculously survived her fatal shot long for a pool of blood to form after she lied down and to have placed the bible in such pool of blood.

22) Either:

A) The police lab managed to somehow misidentify that the blood in the moderator was June and Nevill’s mixed (though there was no realistic way that could happen) and the lab concealed the finding of Sheila’s blood in the rifle barrel

or

B) the family, police and the lab had to have conspired to plant blood/paint  in/on the moderator and to have scratched the mantle with the moderator and to have concealed finding Sheila’s blood in the rifle barrel.

23) Sheila had to have shot herself miraculously without any GSR depositing on her gown and hands or the lab botched the testing of her swabs and her gown and failed to detect GSR that was present.

24) Sheila had to have washed her hands extremely well after murdering everyone else to eliminate visible lead marks that would have been on her hand from loading bullets into the murder weapon’s magazine.

25) Julie had to have lied about everything and to have made up the hitman story knowing that MM didn’t do it so knowing he would most likely have an alibi and thus could refute the allegations despite knowing that Jeremy had no alibi so she had no need for a hitman story and could have just made up the claim Jeremy told her he did it personally if she wanted to make up lies.

26) Jeremy had to have lied to police about Sheila firing all weapons in the house, forgot that he could enter through the window when they asked if there was a way in, forgot there was a spare key kept in an outbuilding when he was asked if there was a spare key and to have calmly decided to chat instead of trying to go inside or to try to get police to go inside to check on his family.

27) Jeremy had to have lied for no reason about the unbroken kitchen being a spare and the bedroom phone had to have replaced the kitchen phone for no rational reason since it wasn’t broken.

All of these unlikely things had to happen in order for Jeremy to be innocent.  Not 1 unlikely thing but a whole series of unlikely things. What is the statistical chance of all these things happening let alone the chance of all these things happening without any evidence to prove they happened?









Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2015, 06:50:PM »
Jan is going to be busy on this thread.

Although it should be easy for her, as my 'Reasons why Neville would not call Jeremy' had 40 points. Each one of course addressed. Quite right to. Jeremy is innocent.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:57:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 06:55:PM »
) Even though it was getting dark out and Jeremy was in the kitchen with the lights on (lighting reflects off windows and makes it more difficult to see outdoors when it is getting dark) he somehow managed to detect rabbits at quite a distance and though Jeremy was against shooting animals and was not known to ever have shot any animals before, he decided to get his gun to shoot at the rabbits instead of running out and chasing them away


One at a time folks !


This is wrong ! I thought you said you had lived in the UK

It was not DARK at all at that time of the night in August - and he had gone out shooting with his father and AP as well

They even finished work on the farm after he went home - and tbh there have been threads on here which have queried why the police waited for "light " to go in as if they had they would not have had to wait until 7.30 am

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 06:57:PM »
 Even though the last known user of the gun put it away with the moderator and scope attached and all witnesses except Jeremy say Nevill had no reason to remove the scope and moderator and would not have done so he did so and thus Jeremy found the gun without the scope and moderator


It was the family who said each evening NB would clean every gun and put them away sometimes this may have meant taking them apart - so as we do not KNOW what NB did that evening this is no proof of anything.

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 07:00:PM »
Jeremy decided there wasn’t enough time to attach the moderator and scope because the rabbits might leave so didn’t bother to take them.  He grabbed a full or near full box of ammo and the gun, removed the magazine from the gun and set the gun down near the rear door. Instead of loading the magazine there he returned to the kitchen, dumped out the bullets near the phone and loaded the magazine where Sheila was nearby so she had a full view of what he was doing.  Then he went back to the gun, inserted the magazine, chambered a round and went out to shoot the rabbits but they were gone already.


So you are saying he is telling lies to indicate that Sheila watched him load the gun?



She was around guns all her life - I am sure she had seen them being loaded before that night so it seems a bit of a silly claim - perhaps he was just a clumsy inept  rabbit shooter :)

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2015, 07:04:PM »
4) Instead of putting the gun away he removed the magazine, removed the round that had been in the chamber and put it back in the magazine and left the gun and loaded magazine on the table or the settle depending upon which account of his you go by.  June and Nevill fail to put the gun and loaded magazine away or bullets spilled by the phone away even though the grandkids were over and June subsequently used the phone that the bullets were next to.


well we don't know what happened to the gun do we? We know where JB said he left it ( I think you are confused as there were two kitchens) . The family say NB would have put the gun away - but there did seem to be other guns about and there was NO LOCK on the gun cupboard anyway .The ammunition was out so NB was not as careful as the family said - So any assumptions about what happened to the gun after JB left are purely that - assumptions .

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2015, 07:06:PM »
5)) Even though Sheila was over sedated thus tired and going to bed early, had never been violent towards anyone during an episode and had never before had an episode except when she stopped her medication, and despite being on her medication she had an episode late at night and to have become violent.


Really ? that's not what FE said. :o  or Colin

Also you are saying she could not be violent on that night because it had never happened before, well you could use exactly the same defence for JB

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2015, 07:08:PM »
 Sheila had to picked up the gun and figured out how to operate the weapon including how to insert the magazine and figured out both that she needed to manually chamber the first round and how to chamber it though she never saw anyone use a semi-auto before and at most saw people use shotguns which would not even mean she would know how to load and use a shotgun let along a gun that operates differently. 


because I am an honest person - I can not comment on this - although I did see a video of this type of gun which said it was small light and easy to use . And as I said before she had been around guns all her life - including seeing AP and DB use their guns.

Offline Jan

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2015, 07:10:PM »
) Sheila had to have gone to the closet to get the moderator out and attached it on her own

its not rocket science to do that is it?

Personally I am not convinced the moderator was ever on the gun. IMO

Offline Adam

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 07:10:PM »
Either Jan is right to fire fight the mountain of incriminating evidence (Wilkes's words) against Jeremy. And he's innocent.

Or there really is something 'creepy' going on.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 07:10:PM »
) Even though it was getting dark out and Jeremy was in the kitchen with the lights on (lighting reflects off windows and makes it more difficult to see outdoors when it is getting dark) he somehow managed to detect rabbits at quite a distance and though Jeremy was against shooting animals and was not known to ever have shot any animals before, he decided to get his gun to shoot at the rabbits instead of running out and chasing them away


One at a time folks !

He got the gun out between 8:30 and 9 PM which was the twilight hours.  You already tried spinning on this issue in the past.  You or other defenders also tried justifying his claim he heard rabbits.

The simple facts are:

1) it is unlikely he would detect rabbits from the kitchen at that hour

2) it is unlikely he would get a gun out at that hour

3) it is unlikely who would get a gun out period since he was not know to ever shoot rabbits

4) it is unlikely he would find the gun missing the scope and moderator

5) it is unlikely he would put the gun near the door then go back to the kitchen to load the magazine near Sheila

6) it is unlikely he would leave the gun and bullets and loade dmagazine out

7) is it unlikely the family would leave the gun and bullets out

8) it is EXTREMELY unlikely the killer would stop using the bullet supply in the kitchen and go to the closet to get 5 more bullet when 30 remained.  This helps establish the entire tale was made up and the bullets staged.





This is wrong ! I thought you said you had lived in the UK

It was not DARK at all at that time of the night in August - and he had gone out shooting with his father and AP as well

They even finished work on the farm after he went home - and tbh there have been threads on here which have queried why the police waited for "light " to go in as if they had they would not have had to wait until 7.30 am
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 07:16:PM »
Even though the last known user of the gun put it away with the moderator and scope attached and all witnesses except Jeremy say Nevill had no reason to remove the scope and moderator and would not have done so he did so and thus Jeremy found the gun without the scope and moderator


It was the family who said each evening NB would clean every gun and put them away sometimes this may have meant taking them apart - so as we do not KNOW what NB did that evening this is no proof of anything.

No the family said after Nevill used a gun he would clean it before putting it away. There was no claim that he cleaned every weapon every night.,

Nor is there any evidence Nevill used the gun ever let alone used it after the last known user used it. AP is the last person known to have fired it prior to the murders.

Moreover, there is no need to remove the scope to clean the weapon anyway.  The barrel is removed from the receiver to clean it. the screw to take the barrel off is under the gun not on top so no where near the scope. 

Your attempt to say it is likely that Jeremy woudl find the gun in the closet with the scope and moderator removed fails miserably. 

The whole point of this thread though is that a WHOLE series of unlikely events would have to have occurred for Jeremy to be innocent- tto many things for him to actually be innocent if one is objective and rational.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 07:22:PM »
Jeremy decided there wasn’t enough time to attach the moderator and scope because the rabbits might leave so didn’t bother to take them.  He grabbed a full or near full box of ammo and the gun, removed the magazine from the gun and set the gun down near the rear door. Instead of loading the magazine there he returned to the kitchen, dumped out the bullets near the phone and loaded the magazine where Sheila was nearby so she had a full view of what he was doing.  Then he went back to the gun, inserted the magazine, chambered a round and went out to shoot the rabbits but they were gone already.


So you are saying he is telling lies to indicate that Sheila watched him load the gun?



She was around guns all her life - I am sure she had seen them being loaded before that night so it seems a bit of a silly claim - perhaps he was just a clumsy inept  rabbit shooter :)

Which semi-autos did she see loaded?  The family didn't own any semi-autos until the murder weapon was purchased at the end of 1984. How could she see a magazine loaded year past when they didn't own any guns that had detachable magazines?  Since I raised this in the past to refute your nonsense you should have known it was coming.  You made an argument you knew was invalid just to try to defend Jeremy.  How pathetic.

If he was in a rush why would he run back to the kitchen instead of loading it near the door?  Why would he stress he did it in the kitchen near Sheila?  Quite obviously he did so in order to suggest she would know how to load it because she saw him do it.

If you want to close your eyes to that because of you bias be my guest but objectively there is no reason for him to go back to the kitchen and stress she saw except to suggest that is how she knew how to load the magazine.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 07:24:PM »
Jan is going to be busy on this thread.

Although it should be easy for her, as my 'Reasons why Neville would not call Jeremy' had 40 points. Each one of course addressed. Quite right to. Jeremy is innocent.

Yay, so proud you must be! You gave 40 reasons, skippy only 27!!! You must be dancing a happy dance right now, huh....

Offline Adam

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Re: The series of unlikely events needed for Jeremy to be innocent
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 07:27:PM »
No the family said after Nevill used a gun he would clean it before putting it away. There was no claim that he cleaned every weapon every night.,

Nor is there any evidence Nevill used the gun ever let alone used it after the last known user used it. AP is the last person known to have fired it prior to the murders.

Moreover, there is no need to remove the scope to clean the weapon anyway.  The barrel is removed from the receiver to clean it. the screw to take the barrel off is under the gun not on top so no where near the scope. 

Your attempt to say it is likely that Jeremy woudl find the gun in the closet with the scope and moderator removed fails miserably. 

The whole point of this thread though is that a WHOLE series of unlikely events would have to have occurred for Jeremy to be innocent- tto many things for him to actually be innocent if one is objective and rational.

That is right.

The determination of Jan is admirable. But fire fighting hundreds of points. Saying they did not happen, or the evidence is wrong, or someone was lying may be credible for one or two points. But too much of a coincidence for hundreds.

Jan, it's time.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 07:34:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.