June Bamber, did not attend bible class evening before she was killed...

[Patti]

I think we all know that, not sure what your point is? Obviously it didn't kill her, hence the second shot. What would you suggest he did when the first shot didn't kill her out-right? Go home and sleep on it? Hope for the best or that she might not remember (if still alive) that her brother killed her children and parents? He had no choice but to shoot her again so he could get the hell out of there. Where in the head do you suggest he should have shot her?

You know what my point is Caroline.

[Caroline]

Of course it was possible that she could have shot herself.  If Jeremy was the killer he took  great risk in shooting her in the throat, because it was uncertain that she could have been killed outright. The evidence shows she got up on her right hand side after the first shot was fired. I don't believe that Jeremy cocked up.

What has Paris got to do with this case? What weapon was used in that attack?

And it's also possible that Jeremy killed her LOL - he's been convicted of it. There is no evidence to suggest she got up at all. I'm not sure what makes you an expert in neck shots but they can indeed be fatal. The brain stem controls crucial automatic responses like 'breathing' the jugular is pretty important too - a severing causes one to bleed to death. Once again, the benefit of hindsight is a wonderful thing. It really doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it is most certainly possible and he was convicted - in order to win his freedom, he needs to prove it didn't/couldn't happen and that's not going to happen.

What's Paris got to do with it? LOL you made the claim that we all KNOW neck shots don't kill, clearly this is an example of when they do, which makes your claim redundant.

[Caroline]

You know what my point is Caroline.

Errr, no I don't or I wouldn't have asked!

[Adam]

Hello Adam. How nice to see you too. But you didn't answer my question which was do you still believe Bamber wore a wet suit seeing that in effect the source for this was RWB. Woffinden only reiterated it.

Thank you for you're response Grahame.

I really do not know what he wore on the massacre night. But you're thread on this subject showed it was unlikely he wore a wet suit.

[Jane]

The first shot to Sheila was not precise was it, for it did not kill her.  Of course he must have known this, having like you say shot the rest of the family. Both June and Neville moved around after being shot several times, did they not? Its common sense that head shots are more likely to kill than those of a body shot.

NO, it wasn't and I have suggested that the reason for it COULD have been that BECAUSE of the need for precision he MAY have hesitated which in turn MAY have allowed her to move. We ALL experience times when, what we've previously done unthinkingly but with expert precision, FAILS miserably when we put concentrated effort into it.

[Caroline]

NO, it wasn't and I have suggested that the reason for it COULD have been that BECAUSE of the need for precision he MAY have hesitated which in turn MAY have allowed her to move. We ALL experience times when, what we've previously done unthinkingly but with expert precision, FAILS miserably when we put concentrated effort into it.

I agree, it's not exactly something you can practice.

[Alias]

You asked if there had been other multiple shot staged suicides - why would there be if it was a mistake?

The firearm was affective, it killed 5 people.

So you have a hard time believing he chose to still stage the suicide - fine by me.

I don't think it's bonkers at all - he had no choice but to cover his arse and that's what he did. Almost got away with it - but not quite.

Why was there (allegedly) in this case? Not sure I understand your reasoning, no one would plan to stage a multiple shot suicide!

It did, but clearly it took a lot of shots to work.

Great!

A staged break-in would be a better option to cover his behind in this case - in my opinion.

[gringo]

Firstly, not for a MOMENT do I believe he armed himself with such information because I don't believe he thought it COULD go wrong -up to the moment it DID, it HADN'T- and hadn't bothered to work out plan B.

You say it had to make sense to Jeremy. YES, it did. That it may NOT to us is of no consequence. The call to the police MAY not have been part of his original plan but something he threw in at the last moment -to "conceal his tracks- BECAUSE of having to shoot Sheila twice. A one shot kill would have negated the necessity for the need for him to be SEEN as being in his own home at the time. A one shot kill could have seen him -or ANYONE- turning up for work as usual.

I wasn't suggesting that you would believe that Jeremy would arm himself with information on multiple shot suicides, I was using sarcasm to satirise Adam's previous post.
     I think the point has been well made by Alias, Patti and myself and you seem unable or unwilling to understand the significance of the point.
     Your argument that the call may not have been part of his original plan but something that he added later to "conceal his tracks" is so nonsensical it is beyond belief. Why would he add a call which could do nothing to "conceal his tracks" but in fact would lead the track inevitably to himself. I don't think that you have thought through your reasoning.
     If you agree that it had to make sense to Jeremy then I think you need to explain this further. How would it make sense to Jeremy to invent a call which implicated Sheila after he had apparently messed up and made suicide a non option.

[Alias]

Alias, you have indicated that you fluctuate between guilt and innocence, so when you contemplate guilt you surly have to contemplate the two shots and staged suicide? Even if you think there was a hitman, Sheila was still shot twice and a suicide was staged.

It makes it difficult for me to accept that Jeremy did it because of the staging after two shots. I think I have made that very clear.

[Caroline]

It makes it difficult for me to accept that Jeremy did it because of the staging after two shots. I think I have made that very clear.

So how does that leave you with an 'open mind'?

[Jane]

I wasn't suggesting that you would believe that Jeremy would arm himself with information on multiple shot suicides, I was using sarcasm to satirise Adam's previous post.
     I think the point has been well made by Alias, Patti and myself and you seem unable or unwilling to understand the significance of the point.
     Your argument that the call may not have been part of his original plan but something that he added later to "conceal his tracks" is so nonsensical it is beyond belief. Why would he add a call which could do nothing to "conceal his tracks" but in fact would lead the track inevitably to himself. I don't think that you have thought through your reasoning.
     If you agree that it had to make sense to Jeremy then I think you need to explain this further. How would it make sense to Jeremy to invent a call which implicated Sheila after he had apparently messed up and made suicide a non option.

Following YOUR chain of thought, I can quite reasonably say that, for ALL your bumptiousness about your "well made point" YOU "seem to be unwilling or unable" to comprehend what Jeremy MAY have done if he found himself in a corner he hadn't expected to be in.

I stand by, and reiterate, what I said about the need to think on the run. It MAY have been his plan to go in, shoot everyone, leave and do NOTHING. He could then have "discovered" the scene when he turned up for work OR have appeared suitably devastated and horrified when notified that someone else had. I can't imagine that having to shoot Sheila twice wouldn't have momentarily thrown him and he may have felt that his priority NOW was to PROVE he wasn't at the scene by informing the police that he'd had a call from his father, who WAS. I never said it was the brightest plan in the world -although he came VERY close to pulling it off.

I can't BELIEVE that you're actually asking me to explain further WHY Jeremy would invent a call to implicate Sheila........................The OBVIOUS answer, surely, is to deflect suspicion from himself. His father, according to Jeremy, had TOLD him Sheila had gone mad and had one of his guns -and here, Jeremy is effectively distancing himself from the situation. He knows nothing more than his father has told him. How could they doubt Jeremy? Jeremy then spent 2/3 hours LABOURING, to the attendant police, the point of his sister's mental illness.

I allow that none of this would be what YOU would do, which could be why it sounds incomprehensible, but I assume you've never slaughtered five members of your family. The person who IS capable of such is likely to have a mind set very different from your own.

[Caroline]

Why was there (allegedly) in this case? Not sure I understand your reasoning, no one would plan to stage a multiple shot suicide!

It did, but clearly it took a lot of shots to work.

Great!

A staged break-in would be a better option to cover his behind in this case - in my opinion.

There is no allegedly about it, there were two shots, but there was obviously two shots because the first was ineffective. Who said it was planned? Of course it wasn't planned that way - no one has said it was. It happened that way - fate intervened and left him with no alternative but to go ahead and try and distance himself with the phone call. I seem to be repeating the same thing over and over again and at no point did I say he PLANNED a staged multiple shot suicide.

[Caroline]

I wasn't suggesting that you would believe that Jeremy would arm himself with information on multiple shot suicides, I was using sarcasm to satirise Adam's previous post.
     I think the point has been well made by Alias, Patti and myself and you seem unable or unwilling to understand the significance of the point.
     Your argument that the call may not have been part of his original plan but something that he added later to "conceal his tracks" is so nonsensical it is beyond belief. Why would he add a call which could do nothing to "conceal his tracks" but in fact would lead the track inevitably to himself. I don't think that you have thought through your reasoning.
     If you agree that it had to make sense to Jeremy then I think you need to explain this further. How would it make sense to Jeremy to invent a call which implicated Sheila after he had apparently messed up and made suicide a non option.

I don't think the point had been made well at all - I just hear complete denial. Who do you imagine the first suspect would have been if Jeremy hadn't tried to distance himself from the event with the phone call from his father? And it's pointless saying he messed up the suicide option because it almost worked!

[Jane]

Why was there (allegedly) in this case? Not sure I understand your reasoning, no one would plan to stage a multiple shot suicide!

THE "PLAN" WOULD HAVE BEEN A ONE SHOT KILL.

It did, but clearly it took a lot of shots to work.

WHICH MADE IT LOOK AS IS THE SHOOTER WAS FIRING RANDOMLY

Great!

A staged break-in would be a better option to cover his behind in this case - in my opinion.

BUT YOU AREN'T JEREMY. AND TO STAGE A BREAK-IN WOULD SURELY HAVE NECESSITATED STEALING SOMETHING. WHAT WOULD HE HAVE DONE WITH IT.

[Patti]

April can you refrain from using capital letters please. Some people may be offended by it as in internet terms it is deemed as shouting. Thanks.