Miscellaneous Notes...

[Alias]

Quite right even AP in his statement said he went shooting with his father - what does Scipio think they were doing ? shooting cows?

LOOOOL

[lookout]

Hahahahahahahaha. I've got a milk jug like that.

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio, I CANNOT accept that you're third point is anywhere near correct. IMO, it's a WILDLY sweeping statement. I cannot imagine that ANY farming son of his age hasn't, at some point in his life had a go at shooting rabbits. He was allegedly good at shooting in his school gun club. Did he learn the skill there OR maybe when he'd been out shooting with his father. He may not have liked shooting rabbits but it doesn't mean that by the time he'd reached 25, he never had.

I cannot accept that all or even most sons of farmers would decide they want to shoot rabbits and that they will all do so.

Whether someone will or won't do so or has or has not done so is an inquiry to be made on an individual basis.  It involves finding out about the exact person involved. There are farms in NJ and used to be a lot more when I first moved here.  None of the people I know who lived on farms shot rabbits except one who shot at any living thing he could get away with killing including gutting a raccoon.  He did it because he was mean. I wonder what became of him because a good number of people who do that go on to kill people as adults.  He moved to another state who knows if he is killing people there.  See how silly such generalizations can get...

The facts here are simple:

1) The workers didn't see Jeremy shoot rabbits
2) the family didn't see Jeremy ever shoot rabbits
3) Julie didn't see him shoot rabbits
4) Julie and his family said he was opposed to shooting animals so his family was surprised when he claimed he was interested in getting into game hunting- which he ended up not getting not that was just an excuse to get a semi-auto shotgun but it failed

So there is no evidence that Jeremy ever shot rabbits before and in fact is evidence he would not have done so because he didn't like shooting animals.

Why do you ignore this evidence?  Because you would like to believe all farmers and their sons will shoot rabbits.

Since I know not all farmers shoot rabbits and there are a lot of gun lovers like me who won't shoot animals except in self-defense I find no evidence to believe that Jeremy had to have shot at rabbits during his lifetime.  There is no evidence that disproves the claims of the family etc who never knew him to shoot rabbits and said he was opposed to killing animals.  The family only knew him to target shoot and that is all he did in front to them.  I find it hard to believe he was in the habit of shooting rabbits and yet no one was aware of this. 

That seems to be lost in this because in order for his story to be true he would have to have been in the habit of shooting rabbits.  No way would he decide as it was getting dark to rush out to shoot them unless he was in the habit of doing so and that still doesn't help explain how he could have seen them let alone the other problems with his account.

 

[Jan]

so the summary is - Sheila cant of done it because she had never shot a gun before

Jeremy cant of done it because he could not even shoot a rabbit - Scipio had kindly proven that FACT 

So it would be unreasonable to assume he could kill a human.

BTW  it was well documented that the family you are so happy to quote were not actually that close so I would not take their statements that seriously .

[lookout]

I've explained, using my own thoughts,why Jeremy decided to go outside to " shoot rabbits " that night.

The family were ensconced in their debate about the futures of the twins and what would be best for Sheila,so rather than interrupt this on-going conversation by suddenly leaving,he used this shooting tactic to excuse himself while they continued,knowing that his father had some loose ends to tie up on the farm,he intended to say his good-byes when there was a lull in the conversation.

To me,it was nothing more than a breather that Jeremy went out for as he must have heard the same conversation before and because it had nothing to do with him,he didn't want to appear to be eaves-dropping and embarrassing his sister. June had already told Sheila she was an unfit mother.

I don't find anything sinister, or suspicious in what he did at all simply because I'm not making a big deal in what he decided to do.

It would be more to the point to find out at what part of the family discussion did Jeremy leave the room.

[Jane]

I cannot accept that all or even most sons of farmers would decide they want to shoot rabbits and that they will all do so.

Whether someone will or won't do so or has or has not done so is an inquiry to be made on an individual basis.  It involves finding out about the exact person involved. There are farms in NJ and used to be a lot more when I first moved here.  None of the people I know who lived on farms shot rabbits except one who shot at any living thing he could get away with killing including gutting a raccoon.  He did it because he was mean. I wonder what became of him because a good number of people who do that go on to kill people as adults.  He moved to another state who knows if he is killing people there.  See how silly such generalizations can get...

The facts here are simple:

1) The workers didn't see Jeremy shoot rabbits
2) the family didn't see Jeremy ever shoot rabbits
3) Julie didn't see him shoot rabbits
4) Julie and his family said he was opposed to shooting animals so his family was surprised when he claimed he was interested in getting into game hunting- which he ended up not getting not that was just an excuse to get a semi-auto shotgun but it failed

So there is no evidence that Jeremy ever shot rabbits before and in fact is evidence he would not have done so because he didn't like shooting animals.

Why do you ignore this evidence?  Because you would like to believe all farmers and their sons will shoot rabbits.

Since I know not all farmers shoot rabbits and there are a lot of gun lovers like me who won't shoot animals except in self-defense I find no evidence to believe that Jeremy had to have shot at rabbits during his lifetime.  There is no evidence that disproves the claims of the family etc who never knew him to shoot rabbits and said he was opposed to killing animals.  The family only knew him to target shoot and that is all he did in front to them.  I find it hard to believe he was in the habit of shooting rabbits and yet no one was aware of this. 

That seems to be lost in this because in order for his story to be true he would have to have been in the habit of shooting rabbits.  No way would he decide as it was getting dark to rush out to shoot them unless he was in the habit of doing so and that still doesn't help explain how he could have seen them let alone the other problems with his account.

 

Can you not see that you're doing EXACTLY what you sneeringly accuse us of doing because of out ignorance. I suppose if I were to find ONE farmer's son out of 100 who, at age 25 confirmed that he'd NEVER shot rabbits you'd say I'd proved your point, yet you won't allow us the same courtesy, dismissing it as improbable. Whilst YOU may not know people who shoot rabbits, we have a good relationship with our butchers who pay for as many as they can get. As far as farmers are concerned the come in droves and destroy crops. Large estates employ game keepers.

The workers may not have seen Jeremy shoot rabbits. He hadn't exactly been a constant on the farm.

The family didn't live on site and had little idea of the daily activities of the Bambers.

I doubt that Julie went to work with Jeremy and she wasn't constantly at the cottage.

I wonder if he told them about wringing rats' necks.  Birds don't count as animals, I suppose, so he could have mentioned if he'd shot pheasants.

I have NEVER said that shooting rabbits was his sport of choice, but I won't allow that, at 25, he'd NEVER previously shot them.

[Steve_uk]

I don't think June would have accused Sheila directly of being an unfit mother,though it might have been perceived by Sheila as being so. June was ill herself,moping around the farm,taking solace in her bible,she had written the heartfelt letter to be opened after her death still unable to channel her thoughts orally to her children. At 9:30pm Nevill answered the telephone to farm secretary Barbara Wilson,whom normally he liked to engage in conversation,but this time Barbara felt as though she had interrupted an argument. Yet Jeremy tells us Sheila was calm throughout,and this is confirmed when June tells Pamela in a later call that Sheila is tired and off to bed. Could it have been Nevill who told Sheila some home truths maybe for the first time in his life that she would have to try harder to look after her own children and not put upon his wife to care for them?

As for the rabbits,sorry I don't believe Jeremy's story and he got into difficulties during Police interrogation by trying to decide whether it would be more advantageous to say he had fired shots or not. In the end he took the line that he had not.

[scipio_usmc]

Quite right even AP in his statement said he went shooting with his father - what does Scipio think they were doing ? shooting cows?

AP didn't say that Jeremy went shooting with his father.  He said that Jeremy took the gun out to the fields with him.  AP didn't say it was used, he didn't know if it was used because he didn't go with them.  He said one time the weekend he was there he saw Jeremy carry it with him as he went out to the fields and that he found it odd that Jeremy was carrying it:





So Jeremy had no interest in using a shotgun to shoot vermin when he was younger.  He only took an interest in guns when he liked AP's rifle and he used APs rifle for target shooting not to shoot vermin.   

What shooting did he see Jeremy do that weekend? Only target shooting with AP's rifle he never saw Jeremy fire the Anschutz let alone saw him shoot any vermin with it. This actually is something I have been mistaken about. I thought Jeremy and AP fired the Anschutz together for target shooting but now see Jeremy fired his rifle he never saw Jeremy fire the Anschutz, my error:

[scipio_usmc]

so the summary is - Sheila cant of done it because she had never shot a gun before

Jeremy cant of done it because he could not even shoot a rabbit - Scipio had kindly proven that FACT 

So it would be unreasonable to assume he could kill a human.

BTW  it was well documented that the family you are so happy to quote were not actually that close so I would not take their statements that seriously .

My argument is that the physical evidence proves Sheila didn't kill anyone or her self and didn't even load let alone fire a weapon.  Moreover she would not have known how to load and operate the weapon and there is a ton of evidence Jeremy attempted to frame his sister including by making up the tale he left the gun and bullets in the kitchen but left too many thus revealing he staged the bullets after the murders.  He also clearly removed the scope himself because it would have made the murders more difficult.   

Jeremy used the gun for target practice thus knew how to operate it and admits he knew how to operate it.  That he didn't shoot rabbits has no bearing on whether he would murder his family for money.

 
How does not shooting a rabbit and only using

[Alias]

Why do they have rifles on farms? To shoot vermin.

Why this long winded discussion?

[lookout]

I don't think June would have accused Sheila directly of being an unfit mother,though it might have been perceived by Sheila as being so. June was ill herself,moping around the farm,taking solace in her bible,she had written the heartfelt letter to be opened after her death still unable to channel her thoughts orally to her children. At 9:30pm Nevill answered the telephone to farm secretary Barbara Wilson,whom normally he liked to engage in conversation,but this time Barbara felt as though she had interrupted an argument. Yet Jeremy tells us Sheila was calm throughout,and this is confirmed when June tells Pamela in a later call that Sheila is tired and off to bed. Could it have been Nevill who told Sheila some home truths maybe for the first time in his life that she would have to try harder to look after her own children and not put upon his wife to care for them?

As for the rabbits,sorry I don't believe Jeremy's story and he got into difficulties during Police interrogation by trying to decide whether it would be more advantageous to say he had fired shots or not. In the end he took the line that he had not.

Steve,this is what I've read about June telling Sheila she was an" unfit mother and should consider fostering ".This was part of the conversation,as I remember quoting the same last year and also in 2013,because Dr Ferguson had remarked on it saying that it would have tipped Sheila over the edge. He only got to know about that after the trial.

[Steve_uk]

Steve,this is what I've read about June telling Sheila she was an" unfit mother and should consider fostering ".This was part of the conversation,as I remember quoting the same last year and also in 2013,because Dr Ferguson had remarked on it saying that it would have tipped Sheila over the edge. He only got to know about that after the trial.

What I can't understand is why Sheila was described by Jeremy as calm,corroborated by Pamela some time later when she spoke to her on the telephone. Sheila could have refused to speak to Pamela had she had a row with her mother,she could have shouted obscenities down the phone at Pamela,but June told her sister that Sheila was tired and was going to bed,so I'm taking that as what was happening at that stage.

[Alias]

Sheila went to bed early - to make her wake up in the middle of the night roaming around. In that sense you can say she suffered from sleeplessness during the night when other people slept.
Her neighbours in Maida Vale told that they could hear her wailing during the very early hours.

[lookout]

What I can't understand is why Sheila was described by Jeremy as calm,corroborated by Pamela some time later when she spoke to her on the telephone. Sheila could have refused to speak to Pamela had she had a row with her mother,she could have shouted obscenities down the phone at Pamela,but June told her sister that Sheila was tired and was going to bed,so I'm taking that as what was happening at that stage.

Typical behaviour of someone who was as ill as Sheila was. Jeremy could easily have lied,don't you think,and said that she was ranting,screaming and shouting ? It might have gone in his favour,though he wouldn't have thought about that because he was telling the truth.
Sheila could possibly have been trying to pick an argument before Pamela rang,but June isn't going to say that in earshot of Sheila,is she ?

[lookout]

I notice that the subject of " skunk " ( powerful cannabis ) has been raised again with it's concerns of causing psychosis 
Long-term use of cannabis alone causes the same thing as most of us know.

Both sons of a friend of mine have been in mental institutions for a number of years through taking cannabis from an early age.One of the boys flung himself through a window at the home of his parents.
The parents had been to Hell and back during the teenage years of their sons,and are now resigned to the fact that they no longer exist as part of the family.

Neville and June were a lot older than my friend at the time of Sheilas' drug-taking,so would have been less tolerant of her behaviour and they themselves must have found the going very tough as well as worrying,causing their own health to deteriorate,as latterly,Neville had spoken to someone about his concerns for his wifes' mental health,as she had not long been treated herself for another bout of depression.

People should be made aware that this drug not only causes damage to the individual,but those people surrounded,family,friends,etc. Years ago there was a lot of shame surrounding those who took drugs,and although there is still a certain amount of shame,it's more out in the open which is a good thing because those who take drugs are more likely to get the right support,something that Sheila didn't get. Families have been torn apart by the use of cannabis,and people are killed in the process of obtaining drugs or by their effects.