Author Topic: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)  (Read 13597 times)

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #60 on: December 25, 2014, 10:17:AM »
Because Mugford's testimony was not enought without the silencer and vice versa?

Yes, hard to tell which one was the cake and which was the icing  ;D ;D
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Offline Gemma

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2014, 11:29:PM »
You have used the word 'may' quite extensively - so in essence you are asking me to discount what was actually said (ie. the initial times Jeremy gave for Nevill's phone call to him), in favour of something which even you have to describe as only a possibility. The times Jeremy gave are a matter of record, the above is simply speculation. I don't believe the police killed Sheila and I haven't seen any evidence to support that they did. Far from being naive, I would need to see such evidence before I blindly accept it as a fact.

Here's the question you asked. It's one which you keep asking.

“And why would Taff Jones NOT have told the relatives he had PROOF that Sheila was responsible?”


It asks for possible reasons why not. If you want a different kind of answer, ask a different kind of question.

Furthermore, there is compelling evidence of a cover up, even if we don't know exactly what was covered up. There are reports of Sheila's body being found downstairs and and also of it being on the bed next to June at one stage. 

« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 11:38:PM by Gemma »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2014, 11:54:PM »
Here's the question you asked. It's one which you keep asking.

“And why would Taff Jones NOT have told the relatives he had PROOF that Sheila was responsible?”


It asks for possible reasons why not. If you want a different kind of answer, ask a different kind of question.

Furthermore, there is compelling evidence of a cover up, even if we don't know exactly what was covered up. There are reports of Sheila's body being found downstairs and and also of it being on the bed next to June at one stage.

'Possible' within the realms of the evidence, not dragged out of fiction and supposition. You keep saying there is a cover up but everything you have mentioned has been explained without the need for a conspiracy but you just choose to hold onto the conspiracy card. I did the same myself for quite a while - but it just didn't gel
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Offline Gemma

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2014, 01:33:AM »
'Possible' within the realms of the evidence, not dragged out of fiction and supposition. You keep saying there is a cover up but everything you have mentioned has been explained without the need for a conspiracy but you just choose to hold onto the conspiracy card. I did the same myself for quite a while - but it just didn't gel

I think the song by Dan Straker is very good. A song is not the natural medium for an argument, yet Dan includes in it two very compelling pieces of evidence pointing to a conspiracy.

He refers to PC Collins saying he saw a dead female in the kitchen and he also refers to the fact that the police reported finding a silencer on the day of the killings.

Those reports can't be dismissed as fiction or as supposition. They came from policemen who's basic competence is not being called into question.


Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2014, 02:29:AM »
I think the song by Dan Straker is very good. A song is not the natural medium for an argument, yet Dan includes in it two very compelling pieces of evidence pointing to a conspiracy.

He refers to PC Collins saying he saw a dead female in the kitchen and he also refers to the fact that the police reported finding a silencer on the day of the killings.

Those reports can't be dismissed as fiction or as supposition. They came from policemen who's basic competence is not being called into question.

A policeman who explained EXACTLY what he saw and 'meant' in his statement. The log was written by someone being told information, they were not at the scene. It's clear how errors occurred. If you looked at other crimes, I'm sure similar mistakes also happened. Here though, genuine mistakes get dragged out of all proportion and facts get ignored or dismissed in order to make things fit - such as the time Jeremy initially gave for the phone call. No one can answer what Jeremy could have been doing for 26 mins to fit in with the 'now' suggestion that he called police at 03:36 ( to fit in with a call from Nevill to police) so, they even try to dismiss Jeremy's own recollection of the time Nevill is supposed to have called. "Perhaps he made a mistake" why would he make a mistake about the time of such an important call?
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Offline Dan Straker

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2015, 01:39:AM »
,
A policeman who explained EXACTLY what he saw and 'meant' in his statement. The log was written by someone being told information, they were not at the scene. It's clear how errors occurred. If you looked at other crimes, I'm sure similar mistakes also happened. Here though, genuine mistakes get dragged out of all proportion and facts get ignored or dismissed in order to make things fit - such as the time Jeremy initially gave for the phone call. No one can answer what Jeremy could have been doing for 26 mins to fit in with the 'now' suggestion that he called police at 03:36 ( to fit in with a call from Nevill to police) so, they even try to dismiss Jeremy's own recollection of the time Nevill is supposed to have called. "Perhaps he made a mistake" why would he make a mistake about the time of such an important call?

Caroline

Sorry for the delayed response, but I don't have much time to spend online.

I believe you are referring to PC Collins's explanation that he mistook Nevill's body for that of a woman. That sounds pretty unconvincing to me. Nevill was six foot four and was wearing pyjamas. It would be like mistaking John Wayne in full western outfit for a woman. :)

Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2015, 02:26:AM »
,
Caroline

Sorry for the delayed response, but I don't have much time to spend online.

I believe you are referring to PC Collins's explanation that he mistook Nevill's body for that of a woman. That sounds pretty unconvincing to me. Nevill was six foot four and was wearing pyjamas. It would be like mistaking John Wayne in full western outfit for a woman. :)

He only had a brief look and Nevill had long straggly hair - I guess it was the style that is called a comb over. He didn't have time to analyse , weight, height and build. He saw the long hair and made a snap decision, which he corrected on entry.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 02:27:AM by Caroline »
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Offline Dan Straker

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2015, 02:42:AM »
He only had a brief look and Nevill had long straggly hair - I guess it was the style that is called a comb over. He didn't have time to analyse , weight, height and build. He saw the long hair and made a snap decision, which he corrected on entry.

Speaking generally, I would have thought it less likely that policemen would make mistakes about things like the time of a telephone call than the average person would, because it's their job to get things right. Jeremy's mistake is understandable, but it's not understandable that the police reported finding two bodies downstairs at least FOUR times.

The accusation that the police lied in their statements is based upon the evidence of the logs in which there are references to a second body found in the kitchen. Some people have tried to say that one mistake just got repeated over and over, but that just won't wash because different reports give different information.

I won't try to give the details here, but anybody can confirm or deny that the following pieces of information were given separately.

1 That a female body was seen in the kitchen before the police broke into the house-I am of course referring to the sighting by PC Collins.

2 That a dead male and a dead female were found on entry.

3 That a call for an ambulance was made in which two bodies were referred to.

4 That when the upstairs part of the house was gained, it was reported that THREE more bodies were found and not four.

5 That in a statement by one Neil Davidson, the following description of the scene downstairs is given: “One murder and one suicide.”

That is one hell of a lot of mistakes. I would say that they can't all be just mistakes, because they all add up to the same conclusion. Those cops, first found Sheila downstairs having, apparently, committed suicide and lying on the kitchen floor where she was visible to PC Collins when he looked through the window.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 02:58:AM by Dan Straker »

Offline Dan Straker

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2015, 03:29:AM »
I think the song by Dan Straker is very good. A song is not the natural medium for an argument, yet Dan includes in it two very compelling pieces of evidence pointing to a conspiracy.

He refers to PC Collins saying he saw a dead female in the kitchen and he also refers to the fact that the police reported finding a silencer on the day of the killings.

Those reports can't be dismissed as fiction or as supposition. They came from policemen who's basic competence is not being called into question.

Thanks, Gemma

I've sometimes thought I'd like to write a prison song, but that if I did I would have to be convinced absolutely that the man is innocent. That's not because I would be afraid of making a fool of myself if it turned out I was wrong, but just because I wouldn't be able to write it if I wasn't sure. For me this is not about feelings, but about objectivity. The feelings come after the science not before it.


Dan


Offline Zoso

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2015, 03:29:AM »
Speaking generally, I would have thought it less likely that policemen would make mistakes about things like the time of a telephone call than the average person would, because it's their job to get things right. Jeremy's mistake is understandable, but it's not understandable that the police reported finding two bodies downstairs at least FOUR times.

The accusation that the police lied in their statements is based upon the evidence of the logs in which there are references to a second body found in the kitchen. Some people have tried to say that one mistake just got repeated over and over, but that just won't wash because different reports give different information.

I won't try to give the details here, but anybody can confirm or deny that the following pieces of information were given separately.

1 That a female body was seen in the kitchen before the police broke into the house-I am of course referring to the sighting by PC Collins.

2 That a dead male and a dead female were found on entry.

3 That a call for an ambulance was made in which two bodies were referred to.

4 That when the upstairs part of the house was gained, it was reported that THREE more bodies were found and not four.

5 That in a statement by one Neil Davidson, the following description of the scene downstairs is given: “One murder and one suicide.”

That is one hell of a lot of mistakes. I would say that they can't all be just mistakes, because they all add up to the same conclusion. Those cops, first found Sheila downstairs having, apparently, committed suicide and lying on the kitchen floor where she was visible to PC Collins when he looked through the window.

The log was written by someone not at the scene after information was relayed second hand. The mistakes were obviously corrected at a later stage.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2015, 03:33:AM »
The log was written by someone not at the scene after information was relayed second hand. The mistakes were obviously corrected at a later stage.

By the way, this was my post - I am also the tech support here - didn't realise I hadn't logged out :)
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Offline Dan Straker

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2015, 03:47:AM »
The log was written by someone not at the scene after information was relayed second hand. The mistakes were obviously corrected at a later stage.

Which log are you referring to? There are a number of them. Are you saying that they are all “obviously” mistaken?

Again, I would like to point out that most information we get is second hand. You guys keep falling back on saying that the officer who made the entry was not the the one who witnessed the scene, but so what? Do you doubt the football scores because you weren't present at the game?

Mistakes can happen in police records but they generally don't.

What policemen write down in black and white is considered by the courts to be strong evidence and convictions have been overturned on that basis. Why should this case be so different?



Offline Dan Straker

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2015, 04:02:AM »
By the way, this was my post - I am also the tech support here - didn't realise I hadn't logged out :)

You had logged out Caroline. I know because I checked to see if you were still there to be able to answer my post. I suppose it's just those gremlins again! But I'm turning it in now. Goodnight.


« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 04:03:AM by Dan Straker »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2015, 04:05:AM »
Which log are you referring to? There are a number of them. Are you saying that they are all “obviously” mistaken?

Again, I would like to point out that most information we get is second hand. You guys keep falling back on saying that the officer who made the entry was not the the one who witnessed the scene, but so what? Do you doubt the football scores because you weren't present at the game?

Mistakes can happen in police records but they generally don't.

What policemen write down in black and white is considered by the courts to be strong evidence and convictions have been overturned on that basis. Why should this case be so different?

The log which mentions 'one male, one female' - I have copies of the logs, I know how many there are.

Yes, most info we get is second hand - but this was 1985 - it siege situation in a tiny village setting. They didn't have the same technology as we do now. A football game and a murder or 5 people after a siege?  Is that really a good analogy? And a football match is videoed - you have the advantage of playback :) and you can actually watch almost any game! If not on TV, on the internet!! And how many times have goals been disputed? Even when people are actually watching?

This case is different because police admitted they made mistakes.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Song For Jeremy Bamber (First version)
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2015, 04:08:AM »
You had logged out Caroline. I know because I checked to see if you were still there to be able to answer my post. I suppose it's just those gremlins again! But I'm turning it in now. Goodnight.

I have my profile hidden - it's a feature! No Gremlins - you won;t see my name listed in either persona - no conspiracy Dan - just a feature that you're also entitled to use and you do. ;) ;D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 04:22:AM by Caroline »
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