Author Topic: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?  (Read 17598 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2015, 10:05:PM »
But wasn´t that exactly the case with Sheila? She had never lived independently of her parents. She depended on money, flat, food, medical bills - everything from them, probably also emotional support and let´s not forget, the control that comes with all of that. Colin too while they were married. Car, flat and on and on. Never independent.

She lived in her own place she wasn't subject to their roof.  They were not her guardians at that point.  When subject to the roof of someone else and thus their rules and they won't let you do something that is when children kill their parents.  They don't plan to commit suicide though in such paradigm it is to kill their parents so they can be free and then go do what they want to do.  It is not part of murder suicide.  In fact if we look at such it applies to Jeremy.

Jeremy was more trapped than Sheila.  She was living away from them. He was the one who had them provide his car, place to live etc and even the ones who provided him with the murder weapon.  They would not let him have his first choice of a semi-auto shotgun though.  He had to work for things while Sheila didn't so he was jealous.  He wanted to live free of their control and just have all their money at his disposal.  He didn't want to share the wealth so killed everyone.  If the goal is not money and just raging against authority that paradigm features killing people until police manage to arrest or kill them.  It's not suicide at their own hands.

Killing dependents as opposed to authority figures is often a feature of murder suicide.  The main reason for this is because knowing the dependent   is alive is a mental obstacle to committing suicide.

Then feel an obligation to keep taking care of the loved one. If the loved one can take care of himself or herself and is not dependent then there is no obstacle but when dependent there is that obstacle. If a parent is dependent upon you to survive it provides as much a reason to live as having a child that counts on you. Another is they rationalize the dependent will suffer emotionally from their loss.  Children of suicide victims need counseling and have severe problems.  Killing the dependent eliminates having to feel guilty that killing yourself will cause such problems. Even jealousy can play a role.  They don't want a spouse to end up with a new husband/wife or their kids a new father/mother.       

So the murder suicide paradigm features killing people whose existence deters you from killing yourself. 

The revolting against authority takes different forms:

1) hoping to get away with murder
2) going on a rampage until stopped by being arrested or jailed
3) going on a rampage and once trapped and knowing you will be going to jail killing yourself to avoid it. Often this will involve suicide by cop but plenty do take their own lives as well.



   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Alias

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2015, 10:17:PM »
Quote
The revolting against authority takes different forms:

Well, Sheila was "different". She was mentally ill, mustn´t forget that she saw the Devil in other people and herself.

I know what you are going to say now, so you don´t have to write a 500 page novel!

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2015, 10:40:PM »
Well, Sheila was "different". She was mentally ill, mustn´t forget that she saw the Devil in other people and herself.

I know what you are going to say now, so you don´t have to write a 500 page novel!

She saw Freddie as the devil not her family and that was when she stopped taking her medicine.  Actions of the mentally ill still fit into the same paradigms as the sane.  Guardians are the ones usually killed but not as part of a murder suicide it is just murder. Whereas a sane person will feel they are being restrained for some somewhat rational reason such as being denied money to do what they want, an insane one feel help back form something sane people view as absurd for example the one who killed because they were in love with a star and felt their family was preventing the from living with the star who they were irrationally convinced loved the too.

If she wanted to kill herself and thus decided to kill her kids to enable it then she still would have had no reason to kill her parents it doesn't fit in.  If there is evidence to prove something happened despite it not being explainable that is one thing.  But he evidence proves it didn't happen and that Jeremy did it and why he did it was because of greed and not wanting to take their guff anymore- reasons that are common.

   
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Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2015, 10:50:PM »
Colin Caffell is simply saying 'if' it was, she would have shot herself with her twins. Which sounds plausible, people testified she was a loving mother.

How on earth can this hold any weight in solving the case?

It is Colins opinion do you really think Shelia would ever say to him along the lines of "By the way if I was to ever kill our children in a murder suicide I would be in the same room when I take my own life" its ridiculous! they would have to have had such a bizarre conversation.

Colin believed it was Shelia at first which shows he didn't believe and couldn't have known Shelia would be in same room if he did he would have got the ball rolling against Bamber from the start.





Offline Adam

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2015, 10:54:PM »
How on earth can this hold any weight in solving the case?

It is Colins opinion do you really think Shelia would ever say to him along the lines of "By the way if I was to ever kill our children in a murder suicide I would be in the same room when I take my own life" its ridiculous! they would have to have had such a bizarre conversation.

Colin believed it was Shelia at first which shows he didn't believe and couldn't have known Shelia would be in same room if he did he would have got the ball rolling against Bamber from the start.

As I said Colin Caffell knew her better than anyone still alive. But feel free to dismiss his opinion.

How do you believe Sheila could have committed the massacre. Two phone calls, two re loads and a brutal beating need to be included.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2015, 10:57:PM »
Scipio - why do you have to find a reason for a mentally ill person to kill her parents ? There is no reason or motive. I think your comments are dismissive and an insult to people who suffer and their families.

what is the "reason" she thought her young sons were capable of sexual acts? Where is the logic for that.

Whatever the truth I feel hugely sympathetic to Sheila and her family and their situation. And you should not dismiss their difficulties so flippantly.

Offline Alias

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2015, 10:57:PM »
As I said Colin Caffell knew her better than anyone still alive. But feel free to dismiss his opinion.

How do you believe Sheila could have committed the massacre. Two phone calls, two re loads and a brutal beating need to be included.

If that was the case, poor Sheila. He didn´t even know whether she was left or right handed!

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2015, 11:03:PM »
If that was the case, poor Sheila. He didn´t even know whether she was left or right handed!

Jeremy certainly didn't know her very well. As he admitted decades later.

However he couldn't stop speaking about her on the massacre night. Mmm.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jan

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #98 on: February 12, 2015, 11:23:PM »
Jeremy certainly didn't know her very well. As he admitted decades later.

However he couldn't stop speaking about her on the massacre night. Mmm.

well as she was the one who was ill that's pretty obvious that's what he would mention.

Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #99 on: February 12, 2015, 11:27:PM »
As I said Colin Caffell knew her better than anyone still alive. But feel free to dismiss his opinion.

How do you believe Sheila could have committed the massacre. Two phone calls, two re loads and a brutal beating need to be included.

Colin knew her better than anyone? that's your opinion. My opinion Dr Ferguson her psychiatrist knew her better than anyone. If Colin knew what Dr Ferguson knew Colin would probably be running for the hills.

Why is it so difficult for some to fathom than a women is capable of loading a gun and physically hurting someone? It shouldn't even warrant a debate.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2015, 11:33:PM »
Because I have a great deal of experience with guns and unless people are taught that they have to manually chamber a round into a semi-auto they don't know it themselves. The family never had a semi-auto until the murder weapon was purchased at the end of 1984 so no occasion to pick up prior to that the need to chamber a round.  The testimony from all even Jeremy was she had no interest in guns.  How would she know she needed to chamber a round by mind reading?

A post earlier from Scipio.

Sheila may have gone on a shooting trip years earlier. But the murder weapon had not been purchased then.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #101 on: February 12, 2015, 11:38:PM »
Colin knew her better than anyone? that's your opinion. My opinion Dr Ferguson her psychiatrist knew her better than anyone. If Colin knew what Dr Ferguson knew Colin would probably be running for the hills.

Why is it so difficult for some to fathom than a women is capable of loading a gun and physically hurting someone? It shouldn't even warrant a debate.

How do you believe Sheila committed the massacre ?

Please include Neville's call to Jeremy. Neville's brutal beating. And two re loads. These happened.

Feel free to include Neville's call to the police. Jeremy says this happened.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 11:39:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #102 on: February 12, 2015, 11:58:PM »
Scipio - why do you have to find a reason for a mentally ill person to kill her parents ? There is no reason or motive. I think your comments are dismissive and an insult to people who suffer and their families.

what is the "reason" she thought her young sons were capable of sexual acts? Where is the logic for that.

Whatever the truth I feel hugely sympathetic to Sheila and her family and their situation. And you should not dismiss their difficulties so flippantly.

1) The notion that the mentally ill don't have a reason for what they do is false.  Jeremy was hoping the police would have your mentality and just say people mentally ill will do anything without a reason. Crazy people do things for a reason the motivation is something that often doesn't seem rational though to sane people though. Understanding a motivation and approving of the motivation are very different things.

2) The fact she was responding to her medication  and still on it suggests not only would she have a reason if she did it that such reason would not be an insane reason.  If Jeremy supporters were as smart as they think they are they would try looking for a reason for her to do it that didn't involve delusions.

3) Why she would do it is most significant if there is evidence she did it then you try to ascertain why.  The evidence establishes she didn't do it though and this is the problem for Jeremy supporters. Jeremy supporters want to avoid dealing with such and just say she is crazy so would have done it end of story not to deal with the evidence that says can't have done it.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2015, 12:12:AM »
Because I have a great deal of experience with guns and unless people are taught that they have to manually chamber a round into a semi-auto they don't know it themselves. The family never had a semi-auto until the murder weapon was purchased at the end of 1984 so no occasion to pick up prior to that the need to chamber a round.  The testimony from all even Jeremy was she had no interest in guns.  How would she know she needed to chamber a round by mind reading?

A post earlier from Scipio.

Sheila may have gone on a shooting trip years earlier. But the murder weapon had not been purchased then.

No you don't have to manually chamber a semi automatic there is a reason why the term 'automatic' is used.

http://youtu.be/vx2hKR_XI2A?t=4m45s

I've used several rifles myself belonging to my granddad all manual they are not rocket science to work out

Offline Adam

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Re: Sheila not fighting back. Why ?
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2015, 12:19:AM »
No you don't have to manually chamber a semi automatic there is a reason why the term 'automatic' is used.

http://youtu.be/vx2hKR_XI2A?t=4m45s

I've used several rifles myself belonging to my granddad all manual they are not rocket science to work out

Over to Scipio.

I don't know about Rocket Science. Or about manually chambering a rifle.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.