Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?

[HMEssex]

So John, do you think that someone else - a third party - actually committed these murders?  There are other threads on here regarding this scenario, such as reports of a 'scruffy man' seen near/leaving the vicinity etc.  One of the points raised in this debate is that such a person would have to know the layout of the house and how to leave and enter.

[Kaldin]

Do you mean she could have been naked when she shot everyone, then washed before getting dressed and shooting herself?

What about the altercation with Nevill. Shelia's body had no marks or bruises on it consistent with having been in a fight.

Not did Jeremy. I don't think that the person who beat Nevill would necessarilyy have had injuries  anyway. If they hit him with the gun, they had an advantage and didn't necessarily have to have personal contact with him at the time.

[grahameb]

This is an interesting article:
http://www.patrickcrusade.org/crime_scene_reconstruction.htm

[grahameb]

Do you mean she could have been naked when she shot everyone, then washed before getting dressed and shooting herself?

What about the altercation with Nevill. Shelia's body had no marks or bruises on it consistent with having been in a fight.

Not did Jeremy. I don't think that the person who beat Nevill would necessarilyy have had injuries  anyway. If they hit him with the gun, they had an advantage and didn't necessarily have to have personal contact with him at the time.

If the man had been shot I doubt that he's be in any position to fight anyone?

[Alias]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

[Alias]

Do you mean she could have been naked when she shot everyone, then washed before getting dressed and shooting herself?

What about the altercation with Nevill. Shelia's body had no marks or bruises on it consistent with having been in a fight.

Not did Jeremy. I don't think that the person who beat Nevill would necessarilyy have had injuries  anyway. If they hit him with the gun, they had an advantage and didn't necessarily have to have personal contact with him at the time.

If the man had been shot I doubt that he's be in any position to fight anyone?

Yes, interesting. A quote from the article:

Gunshot residue is extremely fragile evidence and should be collected as soon as possible (preferably within three hours of the discharge of firearm). One should use the laboratory-supplied GSR kits and carefully follow the directions. In the case of live subjects, if more than six hours have passed or if the subject has washed his hands, it is unlikely that meaningful results will be obtained. If a body is to be sampled, whenever possible, gunshot residue collection should be performed prior to moving the body. If this is not possible, protect the hands with paper bags. Qualified lab technicians for gunpowder residue can later test the hands.

[grahameb]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

I think I got that information from Mike. Because I think I remember remarking at the time that if they took the silencer as well and at the same time then it could have become contaminated in that way? It is only speculation.

[HMEssex]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

I think I got that information from Mike. Because I think I remember remarking at the time that if they took the silencer as well and at the same time then it could have become contaminated in that way? It is only speculation.

Apparently it's true.  Ann Eaton found the knickers soaking in a bucket of cold water inthe kitchen (the debate on here previously was which kitchen as it could have meant 'scullery') and took them away to dispose of them.  Can't remember what else was taken away at same time though.

[John]

So John, do you think that someone else - a third party - actually committed these murders?  There are other threads on here regarding this scenario, such as reports of a 'scruffy man' seen near/leaving the vicinity etc.  One of the points raised in this debate is that such a person would have to know the layout of the house and how to leave and enter.

Yes, certainly. I don't think even Jeremy Bamber is evil and callous enough to stand over his nephews and blast them several times with a rifle.  I also feel poor Sheila was incapable of doing such a thing to the accuracy everyone suggests when her mental state was questionable.

We are left with a third party who knew how to get into the house or maybe was helped into the house some time after midnight. 

[Alias]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

I think I got that information from Mike. Because I think I remember remarking at the time that if they took the silencer as well and at the same time then it could have become contaminated in that way? It is only speculation.

Apparently it's true.  Ann Eaton found the knickers soaking in a bucket of cold water inthe kitchen (the debate on here previously was which kitchen as it could have meant 'scullery') and took them away to dispose of them.  Can't remember what else was taken away at same time though.

Why would they take the blood-and water soaked panties with them? Why not just throw them out at the farm? Or hand them over to the police along with the silencer? I guess sometimes people act in irrational ways, but I don´t know - bring those knickers with them - whateverfor?

[chochokeira]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

I think I got that information from Mike. Because I think I remember remarking at the time that if they took the silencer as well and at the same time then it could have become contaminated in that way? It is only speculation.

Apparently it's true.  Ann Eaton found the knickers soaking in a bucket of cold water in the kitchen (the debate on here previously was which kitchen as it could have meant 'scullery') and took them away to dispose of them.  Can't remember what else was taken away at same time though.

Ann Eaton found more than a pair of Sheila's pants, she also found a pair of Sheila's black trousers soaking - in a separate bucket, I believe. I've seen nothing to suggest that the police examined the contents of those two buckets.

I have seen a statement by Ann Eaton to the officer present when she was about to take the clothes home to wash them which suggests that the police might not have examined these clothes: "menstrual blood smells different, doesn't it?"

A black or dark top and socks could quite easily have been soaking under the trousers or tangled up with them.

A pair of socks with apparent blood stains were found next to Sheila's body.

These appear to be the clothes that Sheila wore before changing into her nightdress.

[chelmsey]

Apparantly Ann took the bloodied knickers home along with the silencer.However,I have read that menstrual blood contains different enzymes to that of our ordinary blood.Something to do with the hormones contained in it.I dont know how true this is,so feel free to google it or whatever.

[Kaldin]

She could have been naked.

She wasn´t wearing any "knickers" (do you call them that?) when she was found dead, only the light blue nightgown. A Tampax tampon was inserted in her.) A pair of Sheila´s bloody "knickers" were found in the kitchen in a bin, or something. I don´t think the police discovered those panties, but the "family" did and brought them home with them to wash them...
PLEASE correct me if this is incorrect info! I am curious about this bit. Does anyone know more about it?

I think I got that information from Mike. Because I think I remember remarking at the time that if they took the silencer as well and at the same time then it could have become contaminated in that way? It is only speculation.

Apparently it's true.  Ann Eaton found the knickers soaking in a bucket of cold water in the kitchen (the debate on here previously was which kitchen as it could have meant 'scullery') and took them away to dispose of them.  Can't remember what else was taken away at same time though.

Ann Eaton found more than a pair of Sheila's pants, she also found a pair of Sheila's black trousers soaking - in a separate bucket, I believe. I've seen nothing to suggest that the police examined the contents of those two buckets.

I have seen a statement by Ann Eaton to the officer present when she was about to take the clothes home to wash them which suggests that the police might not have examined these clothes: "menstrual blood smells different, doesn't it?"

A black or dark top and socks could quite easily have been soaking under the trousers or tangled up with them.

A pair of socks with apparent blood stains were found next to Sheila's body.

These appear to be the clothes that Sheila wore before changing into her nightdress.

I haven't read anything about black trousers, and there's nothing to indicate that the socks near Sheila's body were her socks, or that they had bloodstains on them. They probably did have some blood on them since the carpet in that area had spots of blood all over it, but there's nothing about any other blood stains.

[chelmsey]

Kaldin.......there was a pair of jogging bottoms soaking in a bucket.However,I couldnt tell you what colour they were,just that they were dark coloured.

[chochokeira]

Kaldin.......there was a pair of jogging bottoms soaking in a bucket.However,I couldnt tell you what colour they were,just that they were dark coloured.

That's the ones. They were Sheila's and they were black, Lady Chelmsey. Do you recall where these are referred to? Was it in Ann Eaton's 72 page statement?