Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?

[Kaldin]

I don't think we can go much beyond 3am really.  The gunman whoever it was would have wanted to make sure that they were all dead and especially Neville as he probably knew the killer.

It seems Neville got out of his bed to confront the intruder downstairs.  Does that mean that he was shot first following the fight which ensued?

According to the prosecution, Nevill was shot in the bedroom before he was shot in the kitchen, so if he went downstairs, that wasn't the first time he encountered the person with the gun.

[VORTEX]

i must have missed it hartley, explain again 

Andrea ....... just a joke and I'm not too bothered if he did turn out to be family as he has made some good points / arguments on the forum (albeit from a very fixed angle and take on things  ). he knows the area very well including inside the house it appears? To the extent of knowing the house as it is now and how it was back then more than has been published or shown by pictures. He was most upset like the family or close friends would be when someone said they had been to whf - came very much on the defensive. See this link posts 80 and 84:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,361.msg5186.html#msg5186

I find all his posts are written by someone with a very fixed idea of who is guilty and he seems very inflexible to any possibilities just like the family. This case is so complex it can't be viewed like that - so many ifs, so many gaps and so many maybes. The mind is like a parachute.....it's useless unless it's open 

Anyway .......no offence Hartley and please don't smite me (again) but maybe you could post a brief overview how you came to your views and your experience of the case living locally. Perhaps local views are fixed also on the case?

[Hartley]

No offence taken, and I haven't smited you, understandably I've kinda given up on the whole smite/applaud thing.

Another point though, I havent really shared my views too much, the majority of my posts have been discussing and questioning different peoples theories. If there is anything in particular that you or anyone else wants to ask me the please go ahead.

Then I'll decide if I can or want to answer it 

[VORTEX]

No offence taken, and I haven't smited you, understandably I've kinda given up on the whole smite/applaud thing.

Another point though, I havent really shared my views too much, the majority of my posts have been discussing and questioning different peoples theories. If there is anything in particular that you or anyone else wants to ask me the please go ahead.

Then I'll decide if I can or want to answer it 

Thanks Hartley.........Just a couple of questions to kick off with then:

1) What is your view on JB guilty or innocent? (maybe best expressed as 2 percentages i.e 60/40)
2) What are the key things that have made you form this view?
3) Have you any connection with EP.
4) Have you had any contact with key family members? (RBW, DB, AE, PE) social, work or other
5) Your age in 1985? (approx)
6) Current proximity to the area?
7) Do you hope for a positive CCRC result or would rather it was turned down?

I'm interested in your views opinions and will not shoot anything down in flames as I believe considering all options could be the key to solving this long term. I also understand that the worst Police investigation in modern history doesn't mean a man is definitely innocent. This investigation was shocking whatever way you look at it and even EP aren't proud of it.

[andrea]

agreed vortex.

After the WHF murders journos were saying that the police were like headless chickens at a crime scene.

terrified of getting things wrong again, being over cautious etc, cant blame em they fucked up big time on the bamber case.

[Hartley]

Hi Vortex, I will answer your post, just don't have much time at the moment, but I'll endeaver to respond either later tonight or tomorrow if thats okay.

[ngb1066]

I don't think we can go much beyond 3am really.  The gunman whoever it was would have wanted to make sure that they were all dead and especially Neville as he probably knew the killer.

It seems Neville got out of his bed to confront the intruder downstairs.  Does that mean that he was shot first following the fight which ensued?

If the rifle was fully loaded from get go, there wouldn´t have been a physical fight. There would have been enough bullets in the rifle to kill Nevill. The handle of the rifle allegedly was turned towards Nevill to hit him. My guess is that the fight ensued between emptying and re-loading the rifle.
I am sorry, I am a total newbie to this case - I am reading all I can, but time is limited in my daily life; but I would like to ask: were chips from the rifle found in the kitchen?

A small piece of the wooden stock of the rifle was found in the kitchen, indicating that it been used during a struggle in the kitchen with Nevill.

[andrea]

on the sfj site, on one pic it shows the broken bit of stock near nevilles body, and on another photo it has disappeared

[Alias]

Thanks for answers to a noob, ngb1066 and Andrea.

[Hartley]

Thanks Hartley.........Just a couple of questions to kick off with then:

1) What is your view on JB guilty or innocent? (maybe best expressed as 2 percentages i.e 60/40)
2) What are the key things that have made you form this view?
3) Have you any connection with EP.
4) Have you had any contact with key family members? (RBW, DB, AE, PE) social, work or other
5) Your age in 1985? (approx)
6) Current proximity to the area?
7) Do you hope for a positive CCRC result or would rather it was turned down?

I'm interested in your views opinions and will not shoot anything down in flames as I believe considering all options could be the key to solving this long term. I also understand that the worst Police investigation in modern history doesn't mean a man is definitely innocent. This investigation was shocking whatever way you look at it and even EP aren't proud of it.

Okay let's see, I'm replying on the premise that I have no interest of getting into a point scoring contest, I have my views and other people have theirs. That's fine.

1)
Difficult to quantify but if I had to I would say somewhere in the region of 85/15 guilty, it was probably something like 65/35 before participating in this particular forum.

2)
I generally find the prosecutions presented case to be sound and I’ve seen no evidence from any of the appeals or indeed presented on this and other forums which lead me believe an alternative chain of events occurred.
I have tried to keep an open mind and look at new evidence and theories as they arise, and I’ll continue to do so, but I haven’t seen any of sufficient weight to cause me to change my view.

In addition I have a few personal opinions/speculation in different areas, these are just my own views so feel free to disagree, I’m not ramming it down anybodies throat.
It’s not an exhaustive list but it will suffice as a response to the question I’m sure.

SHIELA-
Regardless of her illness, I don’t believe she had the ability to overcome Nevill (whether already injured or not), or the ability to strike a blow with the butt of the anshulz rifle with such force that the butt splintered.
I don’t believe that she was so proficient with the firearm in a normal frame of mind let alone a frenzied/crazy/berserk frame of mind to have 100% accuracy with every single shot fired, not a single miss.
I don’t believe that she would have shot herself twice in order to commit suicide and the two shots are quite different from each other, the first being from within 3 inches and at a shallow angle just off horizontal, the second being a contact shot right under the chin and into her brain. Having failed with the first shot, I don’t believe that she would have had the presence of mind to understand why the first shot failed and change the approach when it came to the second shot.

JEREMY-
 To me, his behaviour after the horrific murders is very odd, and that doesn’t necessarily make him guilty, but when combined with the huge number of odd coincidences that occurred, it does push me towards thinking that he is responsible.
Some of the coincidences if he was innocent include: the handling of the murder weapon on the prior evening and thus his fingerprints being present; the admission of the alleged break in, which gave an alibi of sorts, saying that he broke in after and not on the night of the murders; the alleged phone call from Nevill to Jeremy; Julie Mugford’s statement against him.
He’s either the most unlucky chap on the planet, or he’s guilty.

JULIE MUGFORD-
I know some people have a view that she lied to sell the story to the papers, or lied because she was a scorned woman with a grudge, or that she completely hoodwinked the defences cross examiner by pretending to be a crocodile.
But without witnessing her body language and in lieu of anything more concrete I’m inclined to trust in the judgement of the jury, judges and interviewing police officers that she was telling the truth.

THE SILENCER EVIDENCE-
Again I’m quite happy with the chain of events regarding the discovery of the silencer put forward by the prosecution. Whilst the relatives actions in taking the silencer to Oak Farm and the closer examination of it, was ill advised indeed, I still believe the evidence and it’s credibility is sound.
I’ve heard the various theories of multiple and merged silencers and differing discovery dates etc, which I don’t believe.

A POLICE FIT UP:
I’m not so naïve to think that police corruption is a myth, but I personally deem it to be absolutely impossible that a cover up of this scale involving this many people over more than 25 years could have occurred.

3)
No I have no connection with EP, I was in the MET for a mere 12 months in 2002/2003 but it didn't suit me, my sister is in the MET and has been for around 12 years. Nothing to do with this particular case.

4)
Yes, but I'm not willing to divulge anything more than that on this forum which has such close ties to JB and his associates.

5)
I was just a kid back then, only in my thirties now.

6)
I live just West of Tollesbury.

7)
On a personal level, the only result I wish for from the CCRC is one which reflects the evidence, they have access to much more evidence than that which is cherry picked and presented on these forums.


Hopefully that answers your questions?

[Roch]

Thanks Hartley.........Just a couple of questions to kick off with then:

1) What is your view on JB guilty or innocent? (maybe best expressed as 2 percentages i.e 60/40)
2) What are the key things that have made you form this view?
3) Have you any connection with EP.
4) Have you had any contact with key family members? (RBW, DB, AE, PE) social, work or other
5) Your age in 1985? (approx)
6) Current proximity to the area?
7) Do you hope for a positive CCRC result or would rather it was turned down?

I'm interested in your views opinions and will not shoot anything down in flames as I believe considering all options could be the key to solving this long term. I also understand that the worst Police investigation in modern history doesn't mean a man is definitely innocent. This investigation was shocking whatever way you look at it and even EP aren't proud of it.

Okay let's see, I'm replying on the premise that I have no interest of getting into a point scoring contest, I have my views and other people have theirs. That's fine.

1)
Difficult to quantify but if I had to I would say somewhere in the region of 85/15 guilty, it was probably something like 65/35 before participating in this particular forum.

2)
I generally find the prosecutions presented case to be sound and I’ve seen no evidence from any of the appeals or indeed presented on this and other forums which lead me believe an alternative chain of events occurred.
I have tried to keep an open mind and look at new evidence and theories as they arise, and I’ll continue to do so, but I haven’t seen any of sufficient weight to cause me to change my view.

In addition I have a few personal opinions/speculation in different areas, these are just my own views so feel free to disagree, I’m not ramming it down anybodies throat.
It’s not an exhaustive list but it will suffice as a response to the question I’m sure.

SHIELA-
Regardless of her illness, I don’t believe she had the ability to overcome Nevill (whether already injured or not), or the ability to strike a blow with the butt of the anshulz rifle with such force that the butt splintered.
I don’t believe that she was so proficient with the firearm in a normal frame of mind let alone a frenzied/crazy/berserk frame of mind to have 100% accuracy with every single shot fired, not a single miss.
I don’t believe that she would have shot herself twice in order to commit suicide and the two shots are quite different from each other, the first being from within 3 inches and at a shallow angle just off horizontal, the second being a contact shot right under the chin and into her brain. Having failed with the first shot, I don’t believe that she would have had the presence of mind to understand why the first shot failed and change the approach when it came to the second shot.

JEREMY-
 To me, his behaviour after the horrific murders is very odd, and that doesn’t necessarily make him guilty, but when combined with the huge number of odd coincidences that occurred, it does push me towards thinking that he is responsible.
Some of the coincidences if he was innocent include: the handling of the murder weapon on the prior evening and thus his fingerprints being present; the admission of the alleged break in, which gave an alibi of sorts, saying that he broke in after and not on the night of the murders; the alleged phone call from Nevill to Jeremy; Julie Mugford’s statement against him.
He’s either the most unlucky chap on the planet, or he’s guilty.

JULIE MUGFORD-
I know some people have a view that she lied to sell the story to the papers, or lied because she was a scorned woman with a grudge, or that she completely hoodwinked the defences cross examiner by pretending to be a crocodile.
But without witnessing her body language and in lieu of anything more concrete I’m inclined to trust in the judgement of the jury, judges and interviewing police officers that she was telling the truth.

THE SILENCER EVIDENCE-
Again I’m quite happy with the chain of events regarding the discovery of the silencer put forward by the prosecution. Whilst the relatives actions in taking the silencer to Oak Farm and the closer examination of it, was ill advised indeed, I still believe the evidence and it’s credibility is sound.
I’ve heard the various theories of multiple and merged silencers and differing discovery dates etc, which I don’t believe.

A POLICE FIT UP:
I’m not so naïve to think that police corruption is a myth, but I personally deem it to be absolutely impossible that a cover up of this scale involving this many people over more than 25 years could have occurred.

3)
No I have no connection with EP, I was in the MET for a mere 12 months in 2002/2003 but it didn't suit me, my sister is in the MET and has been for around 12 years. Nothing to do with this particular case.

4)
Yes, but I'm not willing to divulge anything more than that on this forum which has such close ties to JB and his associates.

5)
I was just a kid back then, only in my thirties now.

6)
I live just West of Tollesbury.

7)
On a personal level, the only result I wish for from the CCRC is one which reflects the evidence, they have access to much more evidence than that which is cherry picked and presented on these forums.


Hopefully that answers your questions?

Quality reply that Hartley. Though I'm concerned at your age. I had you down as being older than me 

[grahameb]

JEREMY-
 To me, his behaviour after the horrific murders is very odd, and that doesn’t necessarily make him guilty, but when combined with the huge number of odd coincidences that occurred, it does push me towards thinking that he is responsible.
Some of the coincidences if he was innocent include: the handling of the murder weapon on the prior evening and thus his fingerprints being present; the admission of the alleged break in, which gave an alibi of sorts, saying that he broke in after and not on the night of the murders; the alleged phone call from Nevill to Jeremy; Julie Mugford’s statement against him.
He’s either the most unlucky chap on the planet, or he’s guilty.

Unfortunately people act in the strangest of ways to grief. I'm not sure how I would react if the whole of my family had just been killed? I should imagine that I would have a whole spectrum of emotions? I can well see him trying to block it out of his mind and even pretending it never happened? Even to the extent of trying to act as normal as possible? To an outsider it might sound strange. But don't you also see it as quite odd that Ann Eaton and David Boutflour coldly looking for clues in a house where their close relations had just been murdered? Where is the grief there? Quite frankly I see their behaviour more odd than Jeremy Bambers.

[Hartley]

Quality reply that Hartley. Though I'm concerned at your age. I had you down as being older than me 

Barely out of nappies. 

[Alias]

Quality reply that Hartley. Though I'm concerned at your age. I had you down as being older than me 

Barely out of nappies. 

Hahaha

[Hartley]

JEREMY-
 To me, his behaviour after the horrific murders is very odd, and that doesn’t necessarily make him guilty, but when combined with the huge number of odd coincidences that occurred, it does push me towards thinking that he is responsible.
Some of the coincidences if he was innocent include: the handling of the murder weapon on the prior evening and thus his fingerprints being present; the admission of the alleged break in, which gave an alibi of sorts, saying that he broke in after and not on the night of the murders; the alleged phone call from Nevill to Jeremy; Julie Mugford’s statement against him.
He’s either the most unlucky chap on the planet, or he’s guilty.

Unfortunately people act in the strangest of ways to grief. I'm not sure how I would react if the whole of my family had just been killed? I should imagine that I would have a whole spectrum of emotions? I can well see him trying to block it out of his mind and even pretending it never happened? Even to the extent of trying to act as normal as possible? To an outsider it might sound strange. But don't you also see it as quite odd that Ann Eaton and David Boutflour coldly looking for clues in a house where their close relations had just been murdered? Where is the grief there? Quite frankly I see their behaviour more odd than Jeremy Bambers.

Doesn't matter Grahame, as I said I'm not interested in getting into points scoring or drawing battle lines, people through human nature have different takes on things, I got asked what mine was and I replied. Besides it would be pretty boring if everyone agreed with each other all the time.

I'm fully aware of many different views and opinions.