Undisputed facts

[mike tesko]

(1) There was no time of death, given in SC's case. (2) The delay between both shots, inflicted upon SC, is not known, and cannot be estimated with any degree of accuracy by any prosecution expert.

[Roch]

(1) There was no time of death, given in SC's case. (2) The delay between both shots, inflicted upon SC, is not known, and cannot be estimated by any prosecution expert.

Has there been any information available as to the reasons why no time of death was officially estimated?

[Hartley]

(1) There was no time of death, given in SC's case. (2) The delay between both shots, inflicted upon SC, is not known, and cannot be estimated by any prosecution expert.

Check this post of yours regarding your second point.

Trial testimony of Pathologist, Peter Venezis

During the trial, Pathologist stated that there could have been a delay in between both shots which were fired into the neck / throat of SC, which was between a few seconds / minutes, and up to half an hour in duration...

[Roch]

(1) There was no time of death, given in SC's case. (2) The delay between both shots, inflicted upon SC, is not known, and cannot be estimated by any prosecution expert.

Check this post of yours regarding your second point.

Trial testimony of Pathologist, Peter Venezis

During the trial, Pathologist stated that there could have been a delay in between both shots which were fired into the neck / throat of SC, which was between a few seconds / minutes, and up to half an hour in duration...

So up to half an hour then... between shots.

[Hartley]

So up to half an hour then... between shots.

So it would seem.

I don't get why Mike keeps posting contradicting statements. 

Can we change this thread title to 'One undisputed and one disputed fact' ? 

[mike tesko]

Although the pathologist, Peter Venezis, testified during the trial, to the effect that there could have been a delay of between a few seconds and up to half an hour, between the two wounds inflicted by two separate shots, he was unable to place this period of delay, to a time of death, or an estimated time of death - which means that Shiela could have received the first wound downstairs in the kitchen, at around 7.37am, and that the second shot was not inflicted, upstairs - until after 8.10am, consistent with the account given in the police radio logs, that two bodies were found downstairs by 7.37am, and only a further three bodies found upstairs, by 8.10am - and the scene declared to have been completely searched...

[paulg]

Could someone show me where the radio log is, that states 2 bodies found downstairs, please.

[Hartley]

Two bodies weren't found downstairs according to the statements of PS Adams, both original in 1985 and COLP statement in 1991.

As per this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html

So let's see time of death could have been up to 8 hours before she was found, basing it on rigor mortis occurrence.

So that puts time of death from about midnight onwards.

[Hartley]

In fact in PS Adams statements mentioned above he makes specific reference to the fact that what was mistakenly thought to be a female body turned out to be that of Ralph.

Can't be much clearer. 

[paulg]

Yes Hartley, i thought you cleared this up yesterday.

Infact, thats the only undisputed fact so far. 

[mike tesko]

Two bodies weren't found downstairs according to the statements of PS Adams, both original in 1985 and COLP statement in 1991.

As per this thread:
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,189.0.html

So let's see time of death could have been up to 8 hours before she was found, basing it on rigor mortis occurrence.

So that puts time of death from about midnight onwards.

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Livor mortis Starts to take effect from between 20 minutes and three hours after death, and when applied in this case, it indicates that Sheila was not dead, and that she did not die, as long ago as midnight, but rather that she could have died as late as between 8:10am and 8:40am, that morning...

Livor mortis or postmortem lividity (Latin: livor—bluish color, mortis—of death) or hypostasis (Greek: sediment), one of the signs of death, is a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body, causing a purplish red discoloration of the skin: when the heart is no longer agitating the blood, heavy red blood cells sink through the serum by action of gravity. This discoloration does not occur in the areas of the body that are in contact with the ground or another object, as the capillaries are compressed...

Coroners can use the presence or absence of livor mortis as a means of determining an approximate time of death. The presence of livor mortis is an indication of when it would be irrelevant to begin CPR, or when it is ineffective to continue if it is in progress. It can also be used by forensic investigators to determine whether or not a body has been moved (for instance, if the body is found lying face down but the pooling is present on the deceased's back, investigators can determine that the body was originally positioned face up)...

Livor mortis starts twenty minutes to three hours after death and is congealed in the capillaries in four to five hours. Maximum lividity occurs within 6-12 hours. The blood pools into the interstitial tissues of the body...

Lets get the facts right, there was no significant discoloration of the skin on Sheila's body despite it being after 10 am, that morning before the police started to photograph her body in situ...

To all intents and purposes, several police officers commented on how waxy Sheila's bodty looked when they viewed it, which caused some of them to comment that but for her injuries, she looked like she was simply asleep...

There were no deep purplish patches on her body at all - consistent with her having been dead for several hours, by the time she was photographic (between 10am and 11:15am)...

[Hartley]

Whilst we are getting the facts straight.
Clearly the prosecution, the CCRC and the various trial judges disagree with your conclusions on this matter.

[mike tesko]

In fact in PS Adams statements mentioned above he makes specific reference to the fact that what was mistakenly thought to be a female body turned out to be that of Ralph.

Can't be much clearer. 

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Except that at a de-briefing PS Adams and the other armed police officers were told by senior officers that they all had to write up their notes, and make their statements along the lines that what they had been dealing with was four murders and a suicide, and that they had to refer to the position of the  bodies as shown in the SOC video clip, and photographs...

PS Adams told COLP (1991) that he was not happy with the position of Sheila's body as shown in the video taken at the scene, but he was told by senior officers to toe the line, along with everyone else...

So, if true, where does that leave PS Adams account about the female body and the male body?

In any event, if this was merely a mistake where the body of a male victim was inadvertently identified as the body of a dead female, how come that according to the contents of the police radio message log, there was only another three bodies found upstairs by 8:10am?

Additionally, how come by 7:45am, DS Davidson (SOC) was being contacted at his home and told to come into the office because police at the scene (WHF) were dealing with a murder and a suicide?

If there was only one body - how could the police at the scene at that time, be dealing with a murder, and a suicide?

The known facts do not fit the explanation you are referring to and relying upon, since, if it was merely a case of a mix up, where the body of a dead male was mistakenly identified as a dead female, police at the scene would not be reporting a murder and a suicide, and what is more, four bodies would have been found upstairs, not three, by 8:10am...

[mike tesko]

Whilst we are getting the facts straight.
Clearly the prosecution, the CCRC and the various trial judges disagree with your conclusions on this matter.

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They do not disagree with my views on the matter, where is your evidence for suggesting such a stupid thing?

[mike tesko]

Lets put the record straight, Dr Peter Venezis has written many books on the subject of Livor mortis, and the way the skin starts to discolor after death, and based on what we now know he knows about the subject, one is left to ponder why he did not make any reference to these features in any of reports about Sheila's death and the timing of it...

The color of Sheila's skin at the time PC Bird started to take pictures at 10 O'clock, is consistent with her having died at some point after 8:10am, and about 8:40am, in the bedroom at whf...