Strap on the Rifle?

[Patti]

I have been reading DRH's statement for most of the evening; examined and cross examined.

When asked if there was a through scenes of crime examination done he replied "No"

When asked if he or other officers wore gloves when the rifle was moved and examined the reply was "No" further to that he was asked why not.  DRH replied that by using gloves it would smear fingerprints.

I noted in the examination that the the magazine had been removed from rifle (18) and this was done whilst holding a strap??

Does anyone know if the rifle had such strap on it? 

[scipio_usmc]

I have been reading DRH's statement for most of the evening; examined and cross examined.

When asked if there was a through scenes of crime examination done he replied "No"

When asked if he or other officers wore gloves when the rifle was moved and examined the reply was "No" further to that he was asked why not.  DRH replied that by using gloves it would smear fingerprints.

I noted in the examination that the the magazine had been removed from rifle (18) and this was done whilst holding a strap??

Does anyone know if the rifle had such strap on it? 

During whose examination was it supposedly held by a strap?  It was held by the swivels that a strap could be attached to.   No strap was on it when the gun was found and they probably never did attach a strap to it.  You only need a sling if you are going to walk around a good distance and don't need to keep your gun at he ready so want it over your shoulder. So hunters might do that while marching to where they plan to set up to shoot.  A sling is otherwise worthless and even gets in the way.

[Patti]

During whose examination was it supposedly held by a strap?  It was held by the swivels that a strap could be attached to.   No strap was on it when the gun was found and they probably never did attach a strap to it.  You only need a sling if you are going to walk around a good distance and don't need to keep your gun at he ready so want it over your shoulder. So hunters might do that while marching to where they plan to set up to shoot.  A sling is otherwise worthless and even gets in the way.

OK. My question is. Is it possible to remove the magazine whilst holding the swivels? Not sure that I fully understand what part of rifle (18) they held when they removed it from Sheila. 

[Mr. Gee]

OK. My question is. Is it possible to remove the magazine whilst holding the swivels? Not sure that I fully understand what part of rifle (18) they held when they removed it from Sheila. 

I have found that the police have shown themselves thoroughly untrustworth all through the case. So many contradictions and mistakes counted in the logs alone which makes their whole take on the case untenable. There are so many unanswered questions and doubtful statements it is almost impossible to unravel the case in my opinion.

[Patti]

I have found that the police have shown themselves thoroughly untrustworth all through the case. So many contradictions and mistakes counted in the logs alone which makes their whole take on the case untenable. There are so many unanswered questions and doubtful statements it is almost impossible to unravel the case in my opinion.

Hi Mr Gee

I agree, from the onset it was a complete shambles. I note that many say its because they had never had such a case like this before and were unsure how to cope. In my opinion that is an awful excuse, because all police have the same training and Essex is no different from any other police force.   

[No-Bits]

Just read the statements/transcript and look at the photographs, it seems pretty clear.

Hammersley explains that the rifle was held by the firearms expert by the two loops where a strap 'would' be.

The magazine that was handled was taken off by Montgomery, whilst Hammersley was not present, or at least that is was he assumes.

No there was no strap.

[scipio_usmc]

OK. My question is. Is it possible to remove the magazine whilst holding the swivels? Not sure that I fully understand what part of rifle (18) they held when they removed it from Sheila. 

You don't need to hold the gun to remove the magazine. With it sitting down you can remove it.  You just need to push the release button and pull the magazine out.

My understanding is that the magazine was removed at the lab.  No separate reference was created for the magazine early on. Hammersley didn't remove the magazine on the day of the murders it was conveyed while still in the gun.

That is why I was asking who you were referring to as to removing it.  It obviously had to be removed to load and test fire the weapon.  I am not aware of other times it was removed though.

It didn't need to be removed by the firearms officer because when the weapon is empty the bolt remains open.  Woodcock was able to look inside the weapon to see the chamber was empty and that the magazine was empty because with the bolt open you can look into the chamber and the top of the magazine is right there.

Here is it with the bolt open:



This is it with the bolt closed:

 

The bolt only stays open when the gun fires the last bullet in the magazine.

That is why the magazine wasn't removed to "make the weapon safe".  Nor is there any evidence it was removed to be a separate exhibit at the time of collection so it wasn't removed till later during forensic testing according to the police involved in the collection.

 

[Patti]

You don't need to hold the gun to remove the magazine. With it sitting down you can remove it.  You just need to push the release button and pull the magazine out.

My understanding is that the magazine was removed at the lab.  No separate reference was created for the magazine early on. Hammersley didn't remove the magazine on the day of the murders it was conveyed while still in the gun.

That is why I was asking who you were referring to as to removing it.  It obviously had to be removed to load and test fire the weapon.  I am not aware of other times it was removed though.

It didn't need to be removed by the firearms officer because when the weapon is empty the bolt remains open.  Woodcock was able to look inside the weapon to see the chamber was empty and that the magazine was empty because with the bolt open you can look into the chamber and the top of the magazine is right there.

Here is it with the bolt open:



This is it with the bolt closed:

 

The bolt only stays open when the gun fires the last bullet in the magazine.

That is why the magazine wasn't removed to "make the weapon safe".  Nor is there any evidence it was removed to be a separate exhibit at the time of collection so it wasn't removed till later during forensic testing according to the police involved in the collection.

The magazine was removed at WHF by the police.  The rifle was moved because they wanted Sheila's arm photographed.  But, they also had to make sure the rifle was safe, this was done and the magazine was removed.

I was just asking if this is possible whilst holding the swivels only I find t hard to imagine the magazine could be removed without the rifle. 

[scipio_usmc]

The magazine was removed at WHF by the police.  The rifle was moved because they wanted Sheila's arm photographed.  But, they also had to make sure the rifle was safe, this was done and the magazine was removed.

I was just asking if this is possible whilst holding the swivels only I find t hard to imagine the magazine could be removed without the rifle. 

The photos show the magazine still in the gun, he gun was moved along with her arm.

This is the photo they took when they moved her arm and the gun the magazine is still in it:

[Patti]

The photos show the magazine still in the gun, he gun was moved along with her arm.

This is the photo they took when they moved her arm and the gun the magazine is still in it:

They must have put it back then knowing it was safe. Unless DRH is not telling the truth in court. 

[Patti]

Just read the statements/transcript and look at the photographs, it seems pretty clear.

Hammersley explains that the rifle was held by the firearms expert by the two loops where a strap 'would' be.

The magazine that was handled was taken off by Montgomery, whilst Hammersley was not present, or at least that is was he assumes.

No there was no strap.

Aww thanks for that Hartley.  So my question is still the same is it possible that the magazine could be removed whilst holding those loops and then placed back into the rifle? 

[scipio_usmc]

They must have put it back then knowing it was safe. Unless DRH is not telling the truth in court. 

DRH said he didn't remove the magazine at the house nor to his knowledge did anyone do so.  He said he didn't know at what point in the future someone did remove it and whether such people used gloves or not. 

[scipio_usmc]

Aww thanks for that Hartley.  So my question is still the same is it possible that the magazine could be removed whilst holding those loops and then placed back into the rifle? 

I already answered above I will cut and paste it:

"You don't need to hold the gun to remove the magazine. With it sitting down you can remove it.  You just need to push the release button and pull the magazine out."

The gun could be on a table or floor as you pull the magazine out there is no need to be holding the gun itself. You have to touch the magazine release and quite obviously the magazine itself.

[Patti]

I already answered above I will cut and paste it:

"You don't need to hold the gun to remove the magazine. With it sitting down you can remove it.  You just need to push the release button and pull the magazine out."

The gun could be on a table or floor as you pull the magazine out there is no need to be holding the gun itself. You have to touch the magazine release and quite obviously the magazine itself.

Have you tried this method with this particular rifle? 

It was Montgomery that removed the rifle...Thought I'd let you know. 

[scipio_usmc]

Have you tried this method with this particular rifle? 

It was Montgomery that removed the rifle...Thought I'd let you know. 

No it was Woodcock.  Montgomery was one of the bigwigs Woodcock was the worker bee.  In his testimony Hammersley said he thought it was Montgomery but it was actually Woodcock.