Author Topic: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll  (Read 58590 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #555 on: October 05, 2014, 10:47:PM »
Scipio that was not the suggestion at all. This is what he said:Where he clearly says that it was an overrated airgun and that was the reason Sheila couldn't have overpowered Nevill.
I sometimes have to laugh at some of these silly things put over by some guilters. If it was Sheila they reason she was so weak and short and it is implied "only a girl" and the gun was effectively only one step up from an airgun so Nevill who was so massive and strong that he would never be overpowered by such a person.
But if it was Jeremy suddenly Nevill becomes a very weak old man who had just been beaten half to death by massively strong Jeremy and then shot to death with his .22 powerful semi automatic. Why he becomes some character like Rambo against this poor sick old man.
Surely even you can see this trickery with words by some? ;D ;D ;D

John suggested that Nevill was strong enough that even though shot he still would have overcome Sheila.  Far from suggested Nevill was a weak man if the killer were Jeremy but strong if the killer were 
Sheial the claim is his strenth did not chang in either cas ebut in one case the attacker was physically stronger.

In meantime Jansus wrote:

"One minute its a deadly weapon that Sheila could not possibly use - then someone says its no more that a slightly beefed up air rifle."

Jansus is either suggesting that a beefed up air rifle would be easy to know how to use or alternatively it would be easy to physically use and suggesting someone said it would be too heavy or strong for her to physically use it.  I interpret it as meaning the latter because the former makes little sense.  The recoil and weight has nothing at all to do with whether she would know how to use it though.

John didn't suggest the weapon was too heavy and had too much of a recoil for her to use nor did anyone else here suggest such so it is a strawman argument.   
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Mr. Gee

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #556 on: October 05, 2014, 10:52:PM »
John suggested that Nevill was strong enough that even though shot he still would have overcome Sheila.  Far from suggested Nevill was a weak man if the killer were Jeremy but strong if the killer were 
Sheial the claim is his strenth did not chang in either cas ebut in one case the attacker was physically stronger.

In meantime Jansus wrote:

"One minute its a deadly weapon that Sheila could not possibly use - then someone says its no more that a slightly beefed up air rifle."

Jansus is either suggesting that a beefed up air rifle would be easy to know how to use or alternatively it would be easy to physically use and suggesting someone said it would be too heavy or strong for her to physically use it.  I interpret it as meaning the latter because the former makes little sense.  The recoil and weight has nothing at all to do with whether she would know how to use it though.

John didn't suggest the weapon was too heavy and had too much of a recoil for her to use nor did anyone else here suggest such so it is a strawman argument.
We in that case why emphasise that the gun was nothing more than a glorified airgun if that is not what he meant? In other words he is making the weapon something that was easily overcome. Personally as someone who has been shot with a glorified airgun I can tell you at once that my instinct was to turn away and het out of the way rather than try to tackle the assailant.

Offline Patti

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #557 on: October 05, 2014, 11:03:PM »
John suggested that Nevill was strong enough that even though shot he still would have overcome Sheila.  Far from suggested Nevill was a weak man if the killer were Jeremy but strong if the killer were 
Sheial the claim is his strenth did not chang in either cas ebut in one case the attacker was physically stronger.

In meantime Jansus wrote:

"One minute its a deadly weapon that Sheila could not possibly use - then someone says its no more that a slightly beefed up air rifle."

Jansus is either suggesting that a beefed up air rifle would be easy to know how to use or alternatively it would be easy to physically use and suggesting someone said it would be too heavy or strong for her to physically use it.  I interpret it as meaning the latter because the former makes little sense.  The recoil and weight has nothing at all to do with whether she would know how to use it though.

John didn't suggest the weapon was too heavy and had too much of a recoil for her to use nor did anyone else here suggest such so it is a strawman argument.

According to the experts a child could have used rifle (18) the recoil was so small.

Talking about women overpowering men. I watched this crime about a 29 year old woman 4ft 11 inches who stabbed her lover 28 times and killed him. He was 6ft tall and quite a hefty chap, but he could not defend himself against this small framed woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f84iBjhTLLI

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #558 on: October 05, 2014, 11:07:PM »
We in that case why emphasise that the gun was nothing more than a glorified airgun if that is not what he meant? In other words he is making the weapon something that was easily overcome. Personally as someone who has been shot with a glorified airgun I can tell you at once that my instinct was to turn away and het out of the way rather than try to tackle the assailant.

John is saying glorified airgun to say:

1) Nevill would not be scared to try to disarm her because it was a low powered gun

and

2) Nevill still would have been able to overpower Sheial because the gun would not have caused wounds significant enough to have enabled little Sheila to have previaled in a life or death struggle with Nevill

He never said anything about the gun being too heavy or recoil too much for Sheila to handle.  Nor did anyone else that I ever saw.


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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #559 on: October 05, 2014, 11:54:PM »
Not really, I'd want to know who was at the scene. West probably did mention who called but it didn't need to be written twice!
A list of the people at the scene wasn't noted by Pc West or Malcolm Bonnett, so it seems nobody could have told you even if you'd asked.

Surely Pc West would mention potential danger, though. Do you agree?

Offline Caroline

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #560 on: October 06, 2014, 01:39:AM »
A list of the people at the scene wasn't noted by Pc West or Malcolm Bonnett, so it seems nobody could have told you even if you'd asked.

Surely Pc West would mention potential danger, though. Do you agree?

They knew there was at least two people - Neville and Sheila, we don't know that they weren't alerted to potential danger?
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #561 on: October 06, 2014, 01:50:AM »
According to the experts a child could have used rifle (18) the recoil was so small.

Talking about women overpowering men. I watched this crime about a 29 year old woman 4ft 11 inches who stabbed her lover 28 times and killed him. He was 6ft tall and quite a hefty chap, but he could not defend himself against this small framed woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f84iBjhTLLI

Even small recoil is enough to make you not aim well on subsequent shots.  People all too often thing about recoil as in getting knocked on you arse instead of thinking about it messing up shots if you continue to fire.  A gun with large recoil that you never fired before it one likely to give big problems.

A .357 magnum can fire 38 special rounds or .357 magnum rounds.  As a joke someone put a 357 round in when I was shooting 38 special rounds.  I never fired a 357 before nor was prepared. It was the 5th round in the gun.  I shot the first 4 without incident and then it jumped and my last round I missed the target completely.  The .44 magnum is beast I was ready for that and it still was something.

Her good shooting is just one of the many things that don't add up it is not by any stretch the only thing.  It is just one of the building blocks.

There are multitudes of incidents of female cops being overpowered by men and their weapons being taken away. Did you hear about the fence jumper at the US White House?  He overpowered a female secret service member before being subdued by males. 

There are women who can hold their own against men but that is when the men are are not that big or strong in comparison to the women. Women who are not only tall but powerful is actually rare.  Some lift weights and such and are strong but most are not.

One nurse who I know always bragged about how tough and strong she was and how she could handle all men with no problem.  A patient who she tried to manhandle on her own because she needs no help ended up doing a number on her. Her ego took a big hit not just her body.  She liked the idea of thinking of herself as a badass.

My favorite line from the Dirty Harry movies is not what one would think- it is, "A man's got to know his limitations".  Overconfidence always causes unecessary harm. 

If someone is attacked by surprise with a knife they can be overpowered by someone smaller. In fact in some instances a smaller person can be a real challenge with a knife because they are closer to your vulnerable areas. There are a lot of variables though.

A rifle is far easier to take away from someone than a knife or even a handgun.  It is rather easy to knock a rifle away so it is not pointing at you and then you have plenty of opportunity to wrest it away.  You need to keep someone at a distance to be able to prevent such. That is why walking up to Nevill as he was on the phone and trying to grab the phone or push the buttons down would be so disasterous, only one hand would be on the gun and he would be able to grab it easily because you owuld hve to be close to him.

It's relatively hard to get in grasping distance of a handgun without being shot. A knife depends on how the person is holding it and using it.  Practices always feature people mugging you close up and those moves you can get down pat.  If someone is smart and keeps their distance then it is not so easy.   

In real life people who decide to kill don't usually pause.  It is the people not sure what they want to do who pause and are easy to try to disarm.  The people who decide to kill just open fire before you can react. Or they start slashing and stabbing before you know what is going on. 

Nevill was pretty damn strong, if his left arm had not been broken Jeremy might not have come out on top of that one.  Given the broken arm Sheila could potentially have prevailed but might not have been strong enough to we don't know.  All we know is that she would have harmed herself in the precess at minimum by scratching her hand when the stock broke, cut her feet and chip if not break some nails.  More importantly she would have been covered in blood.

We are not being asked for one unlikely thing to happen, for Sheila to be guilty there has to be a whole series of unlikely things from top to bottom and some impossible things.  That is why Jeremy has no chance of ever seeing the light of day. 
 
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Mr. Gee

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #562 on: October 06, 2014, 01:36:PM »
John is saying glorified airgun to say:

1) Nevill would not be scared to try to disarm her because it was a low powered gun

and

2) Nevill still would have been able to overpower Sheial because the gun would not have caused wounds significant enough to have enabled little Sheila to have previaled in a life or death struggle with Nevill

He never said anything about the gun being too heavy or recoil too much for Sheila to handle.  Nor did anyone else that I ever saw.
So why didn't he do that with Bamber since it was a low powered gun? Well when that bullet hit me I certainly wouldn't have said it was a low powered gun, it certainly put me out of action and that only hit my arm.

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #563 on: October 06, 2014, 01:41:PM »
Even small recoil is enough to make you not aim well on subsequent shots.  People all too often thing about recoil as in getting knocked on you arse instead of thinking about it messing up shots if you continue to fire.  A gun with large recoil that you never fired before it one likely to give big problems.

A .357 magnum can fire 38 special rounds or .357 magnum rounds.  As a joke someone put a 357 round in when I was shooting 38 special rounds.  I never fired a 357 before nor was prepared. It was the 5th round in the gun.  I shot the first 4 without incident and then it jumped and my last round I missed the target completely.  The .44 magnum is beast I was ready for that and it still was something.

Her good shooting is just one of the many things that don't add up it is not by any stretch the only thing.  It is just one of the building blocks.

There are multitudes of incidents of female cops being overpowered by men and their weapons being taken away. Did you hear about the fence jumper at the US White House?  He overpowered a female secret service member before being subdued by males. 

There are women who can hold their own against men but that is when the men are are not that big or strong in comparison to the women. Women who are not only tall but powerful is actually rare.  Some lift weights and such and are strong but most are not.

One nurse who I know always bragged about how tough and strong she was and how she could handle all men with no problem.  A patient who she tried to manhandle on her own because she needs no help ended up doing a number on her. Her ego took a big hit not just her body.  She liked the idea of thinking of herself as a badass.

My favorite line from the Dirty Harry movies is not what one would think- it is, "A man's got to know his limitations".  Overconfidence always causes unecessary harm. 

If someone is attacked by surprise with a knife they can be overpowered by someone smaller. In fact in some instances a smaller person can be a real challenge with a knife because they are closer to your vulnerable areas. There are a lot of variables though.

A rifle is far easier to take away from someone than a knife or even a handgun.  It is rather easy to knock a rifle away so it is not pointing at you and then you have plenty of opportunity to wrest it away.  You need to keep someone at a distance to be able to prevent such. That is why walking up to Nevill as he was on the phone and trying to grab the phone or push the buttons down would be so disasterous, only one hand would be on the gun and he would be able to grab it easily because you owuld hve to be close to him.

It's relatively hard to get in grasping distance of a handgun without being shot. A knife depends on how the person is holding it and using it.  Practices always feature people mugging you close up and those moves you can get down pat.  If someone is smart and keeps their distance then it is not so easy.   

In real life people who decide to kill don't usually pause.  It is the people not sure what they want to do who pause and are easy to try to disarm.  The people who decide to kill just open fire before you can react. Or they start slashing and stabbing before you know what is going on. 

Nevill was pretty damn strong, if his left arm had not been broken Jeremy might not have come out on top of that one.  Given the broken arm Sheila could potentially have prevailed but might not have been strong enough to we don't know.  All we know is that she would have harmed herself in the precess at minimum by scratching her hand when the stock broke, cut her feet and chip if not break some nails.  More importantly she would have been covered in blood.

We are not being asked for one unlikely thing to happen, for Sheila to be guilty there has to be a whole series of unlikely things from top to bottom and some impossible things.  That is why Jeremy has no chance of ever seeing the light of day. 
 
I've fired one (bolt action) years ago and I can't remember any recoil at all from a .22.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #564 on: October 06, 2014, 05:50:PM »
I've fired one (bolt action) years ago and I can't remember any recoil at all from a .22.

Working the bolt alone to load a new round into the chamber results in movement of the weapon unless quite skilled and takes additional time that is not needed with a semi-auto.  That is why Jerey wanted a semi-auto to commit the murders with.

Sheila had numerous things working against her in terms of dexterity ranging from her natural problems to ones caused by her medication and that would have resulted from rapid movement in a crazy rage.  More significantly she never fired the weapon before which alone would result in a learning curve.  That is if she figured out how to use it. There is nothing to suggest she would be able to figure out she needed to chamber a round manually or how before she could be disarmed.

For Jeremy to be innocent there had to be a whole long series of unlikely events that occurred and some that are not even possible.

That is why Jeremy supporters want to address each independently because if you try arguing 30 extremely unlikely things all occurred in succession you look like a fool. In the meantime they also ignore many of the most daning things because they have no real way to refute them.

Then they whine and say he should be released though they failed miserably at presenting any evidence that refutes the evidence that convicted him and thus have not in the least demonstrateed he is innocent and should be released.

Deciding they will ignore reality and pretend Sheial would not have gotten GSR and blood on her clothing or alternatively pretend that she changed and that the GSR/blood stained clothing was hidden at WHF but never found by anyone though everything was gone through amounts to denial simply not proof or evidence.

Deciding to pretend she did not suffer from a contact wound as the experts assert and was not shot with the moderator on the gun but rather that the parents were shot with the moderator at contact range and somehow Nevill's less stable AK1 survived while June's AK2-1 did not and somehow in some mysterious manner the blood failed to intimately mix though there is no explanation as to how that could have occurred amounts to denial.  It is further denial to believe Sheila went into a crazy rage, found the gun in the kitchen where Jeremy left it then decided to go to the close to get the moderator to place on it, used it with the moderator attached, removed the moderator after killing everyone then put it away in the closet to hide it so no one would know it was used. Why would she get it out let alone put it away to conceal its use? Also live in denial by pretending that Sheila would use 20 rounds from the batch of bullets he left in the kitchen but then go to the closet to get 5 more instead of continuing to use the kitchen supply even though 30 remained in that supply.

There is nothing to suggest these things are credibile,  People just decide they want to beleive Jeremy is innocent no matter what and are willing to ignore anything and everything against him for no rational reason but instead for the biased reaosn they don't want to face his guilt.

In fact they are so biased they even revise Jerey's claims and statements.  They know what Jeremy said was harful to his position so they make up different testimony for him or ignore his testimony.  Alias et al spent many days insisting that even though Jeremy himself admitted he climbed through the kitchen window that a human can't fit and thus Jeremy was just lying about being able to do so.  Why would he lie to admit something unfavorable to his position? You lie to say something favorable to your position.

The thing about living in denial is that living in denial only impacts your own personal views.  It doesn't provide any basis upon which to argue from. 

When arguing before a court or even just informally saying you refuse to face that Sheila's fatal wound was a contact wound and thus can't have resulted in drawback into the weapon doesn't cut the mustard.  You need strong evidence that proves the experts who asserted it was a contact wound were wrong.  Choosing to believe that because it is necessary for Jeremy to be innocent and you want to believe Jeremy is innocent amounts to blind faith simply.

That is where we find ourselves today.

We have on one side those who have blind faith in Jeremy who live in denial as a result and then those who don't and who thus face the evidence against Jeremy and consequently believe he is guilty.

That is why there is a stalemate.  Adam thinks he can convince such people to abandon their blind faither not understanding they intentionally have decided to reject and and all evidence against Jeremy no matter what and instead to have blind faith. 

There are some unscrupulous Jeremy supporters who don't want to admit they are operating on blind faith so they distort and pretend that there is evidence to establish someone was inside alive while police were at the scene, that Nevill had phoned police, that blood was planted in the moderator and things of that sort though they in fact have no evidence at all to establish such occurred.

If such unscrupulous posts stopped popping up and Adam stopped trying to waste his time convincing them to give up their blind faih the site would largely come to a halt.  Most posts are either a reaction tot he distortions posted by Jeremy supporters or reactions by supporters to Adams posts.

So it is just a vicious circle with no progress being made.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #565 on: October 06, 2014, 06:02:PM »
Working the bolt alone to load a new round into the chamber results in movement of the weapon unless quite skilled and takes additional time that is not needed with a semi-auto.  That is why Jerey wanted a semi-auto to commit the murders with.

Sheila had numerous things working against her in terms of dexterity ranging from her natural problems to ones caused by her medication and that would have resulted from rapid movement in a crazy rage.  More significantly she never fired the weapon before which alone would result in a learning curve.  That is if she figured out how to use it. There is nothing to suggest she would be able to figure out she needed to chamber a round manually or how before she could be disarmed.

For Jeremy to be innocent there had to be a whole long series of unlikely events that occurred and some that are not even possible.

That is why Jeremy supporters want to address each independently because if you try arguing 30 extremely unlikely things all occurred in succession you look like a fool. In the meantime they also ignore many of the most daning things because they have no real way to refute them.

Then they whine and say he should be released though they failed miserably at presenting any evidence that refutes the evidence that convicted him and thus have not in the least demonstrateed he is innocent and should be released.

Deciding they will ignore reality and pretend Sheial would not have gotten GSR and blood on her clothing or alternatively pretend that she changed and that the GSR/blood stained clothing was hidden at WHF but never found by anyone though everything was gone through amounts to denial simply not proof or evidence.

Deciding to pretend she did not suffer from a contact wound as the experts assert and was not shot with the moderator on the gun but rather that the parents were shot with the moderator at contact range and somehow Nevill's less stable AK1 survived while June's AK2-1 did not and somehow in some mysterious manner the blood failed to intimately mix though there is no explanation as to how that could have occurred amounts to denial.  It is further denial to believe Sheila went into a crazy rage, found the gun in the kitchen where Jeremy left it then decided to go to the close to get the moderator to place on it, used it with the moderator attached, removed the moderator after killing everyone then put it away in the closet to hide it so no one would know it was used. Why would she get it out let alone put it away to conceal its use? Also live in denial by pretending that Sheila would use 20 rounds from the batch of bullets he left in the kitchen but then go to the closet to get 5 more instead of continuing to use the kitchen supply even though 30 remained in that supply.

There is nothing to suggest these things are credibile,  People just decide they want to beleive Jeremy is innocent no matter what and are willing to ignore anything and everything against him for no rational reason but instead for the biased reaosn they don't want to face his guilt.

In fact they are so biased they even revise Jerey's claims and statements.  They know what Jeremy said was harful to his position so they make up different testimony for him or ignore his testimony.  Alias et al spent many days insisting that even though Jeremy himself admitted he climbed through the kitchen window that a human can't fit and thus Jeremy was just lying about being able to do so.  Why would he lie to admit something unfavorable to his position? You lie to say something favorable to your position.

The thing about living in denial is that living in denial only impacts your own personal views.  It doesn't provide any basis upon which to argue from. 

When arguing before a court or even just informally saying you refuse to face that Sheila's fatal wound was a contact wound and thus can't have resulted in drawback into the weapon doesn't cut the mustard.  You need strong evidence that proves the experts who asserted it was a contact wound were wrong.  Choosing to believe that because it is necessary for Jeremy to be innocent and you want to believe Jeremy is innocent amounts to blind faith simply.

That is where we find ourselves today.

We have on one side those who have blind faith in Jeremy who live in denial as a result and then those who don't and who thus face the evidence against Jeremy and consequently believe he is guilty.

That is why there is a stalemate.  Adam thinks he can convince such people to abandon their blind faither not understanding they intentionally have decided to reject and and all evidence against Jeremy no matter what and instead to have blind faith. 

There are some unscrupulous Jeremy supporters who don't want to admit they are operating on blind faith so they distort and pretend that there is evidence to establish someone was inside alive while police were at the scene, that Nevill had phoned police, that blood was planted in the moderator and things of that sort though they in fact have no evidence at all to establish such occurred.

If such unscrupulous posts stopped popping up and Adam stopped trying to waste his time convincing them to give up their blind faih the site would largely come to a halt.  Most posts are either a reaction tot he distortions posted by Jeremy supporters or reactions by supporters to Adams posts.

So it is just a vicious circle with no progress being made.

People have gone from innocent to guilty since I joined. Susan saying my posts and sources helped convince her.

There is no way Caroline, Alias and April will admit that my posts have convinced them to change. Caroline giving a strange reason about a wallet and a letter. April has not given a reason. Alias saying she is now unsure.

Although I have received several PM's from people in the guilty camp saying they agree with my posts. And people on Red have also praised me.

Grahame admittted defeat and left. Before returning. Probably due to retirement boredom.

Even Reader has resorted to proving Jeremy is innocent by saying his own WS is wrong !

Lookout, Jackie and Jansus are refusing to budge.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 06:08:PM by Adam »
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Offline lookout

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #566 on: October 06, 2014, 06:05:PM »
 The only unscrupulous poster here is YOU,Scipio, with your reams of hatred and propaganda !!

Offline Jane

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #567 on: October 06, 2014, 06:26:PM »
People have gone from innocent to guilty since I joined. Susan saying my posts and sources helped convince her.

There is no way Caroline, Alias and April will admit that my posts have convinced them to change. Caroline giving a strange reason about a wallet and a letter. April has not given a reason. Alias saying she is now unsure.

Although I have received several PM's from people in the guilty camp saying they agree with my posts. And people on Red have also commented on me.

Grahame admittted defeat and left. Before returning. Probably due to retirement boredom.

Even Reader has resorted to proving Jeremy is innocent by saying his own WS is wrong !

Lookout, Jackie and Jansus are refusing to budge.


Is that ALL you're here for Adam. To be "commented on"? My!! HOW big an ego is that?

It would be GROSSLY unfair if I failed to say that, IMO, you HAVE made some excellent points but, again, and only in my opinion, you probably, HAVE done, and still do, MORE to prevent posters changing their minds from innocent to guilty, than anyone else. You throw out accusations about people focusing on you but you appear to relish the attention.   

Offline Caroline

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #568 on: October 06, 2014, 06:30:PM »
People have gone from innocent to guilty since I joined. Susan saying my posts and sources helped convince her.

There is no way Caroline, Alias and April will admit that my posts have convinced them to change. Caroline giving a strange reason about a wallet and a letter. April has not given a reason. Alias saying she is now unsure.

Although I have received several PM's from people in the guilty camp saying they agree with my posts. And people on Red have also praised me.

Grahame admittted defeat and left. Before returning. Probably due to retirement boredom.

Even Reader has resorted to proving Jeremy is innocent by saying his own WS is wrong !

Lookout, Jackie and Jansus are refusing to budge.

You're right because if I said it had ANYTHING to do with you, it would make me a liar.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

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Re: A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll
« Reply #569 on: October 06, 2014, 06:33:PM »
And Scipio is here purely and simply to win the propaganda war ! He thinks ! His aim is to deliberately mislead.Makes plenty of assertions,but no arguments to back them up.