A Call To Essex Police From Neville? - The poll

[scipio_usmc]

In Cracknells statement he was alerted at 3:33 does this help?

That depends on who you are asking. It certainly doesn't help those who want to suggest the police were dispatched as a reult of Nevill's call which would have required dispatching much sooner.  West called Bonnet at 3:26 so that means Jeremy's call to West was earlier than 3:26 so dispatching several minutes prior to 3:26 would be necessary to establish by timing that they were dispatched as a result of a call from someone other than Jeremy.

In terms of testimonial evidence, the police officer who responded say they were told of a call from Jeremy and tha the would meet them there and Bonnett and West say they dispatched these police as a result of Jeremy's call.

So it is bad news for someone trying to establish Nevill called police and there is no reason to even think such happened.  It is simply an invention to try to provide some who want to argue in favor of Jeremy's innocence with a point.

Without this and other similar inventions such as the claim Sheila was in the house communicating with police supporters are basically left with the argument that they have faith in Jeremy and don't believe he did it but have no actual evidence to establish he is definitely innocent.  Some are not content with that argument because it is not going to sway others so they invent. 

If all that is shed what are we left with?

A group of people who don't beleive the evidence against Jeremy proves he did it but who can't refute the evidence and a group that believes the evidence proves he is guilty. That is the heart of it and if we did strip everything and get to that heart the debate is pretty much a standstill there is no where else to go unless something new surfaced.



 



 

[scipio_usmc]

Do you know how long the phone was off the hook ??

At minimum it was removed before Jeremy left WHF, he could have taken it off the hook at any time between entering and before leaving.  The last known use of said phone was when June was using it.  While it is possible she failed to hang it up and was off the hook from the time she stopped using it forward, I doubt that.

   

[scipio_usmc]

Usually you can't just leave, you need an admin to authorise the deletion. That is how it used to be anyway, perhaps it's changed again.

I don't understand what you mean.  I can't just stop posting and leave my account operational so that if one day I wanted to post again I could? 

[Patti]

That depends on who you are asking. It certainly doesn't help those who want to suggest the police were dispatched as a reult of Nevill's call which would have required dispatching much sooner.  West called Bonnet at 3:26 so that means Jeremy's call to West was earlier than 3:26 so dispatching several minutes prior to 3:26 would be necessary to establish by timing that they were dispatched as a result of a call from someone other than Jeremy.

In terms of testimonial evidence, the police officer who responded say they were told of a call from Jeremy and tha the would meet them there and Bonnett and West say they dispatched these police as a result of Jeremy's call.

So it is bad news for someone trying to establish Nevill called police and there is no reason to even think such happened.  It is simply an invention to try to provide some who want to argue in favor of Jeremy's innocence with a point.

Without this and other similar inventions such as the claim Sheila was in the house communicating with police supporters are basically left with the argument that they have faith in Jeremy and don't believe he did it but have no actual evidence to establish he is definitely innocent.  Some are not content with that argument because it is not going to sway others so they invent. 

If all that is shed what are we left with?

A group of people who don't beleive the evidence against Jeremy proves he did it but who can't refute the evidence and a group that believes the evidence proves he is guilty. That is the heart of it and if we did strip everything and get to that heart the debate is pretty much a standstill there is no where else to go unless something new surfaced.



 



 

All I can say is that Cracknell stated in his statement that he was alerted by the control room at 3:33 yet their car CA5 did not arrive on site till 4:33

To be fair I have always thought that Jeremy called the police at appropriately 3:10 or 13:15 If this was the case then he must have phoned Maldon police slightly earlier than 3:10 or 3:15 like 3:05. If Cracknell was alerted at 3:33 by the control room and the call lasted, say, 10 minutes that brings the time back to 3:23 but if the call ended at 3:26 then its likely that the call was made at 3:15.

So, if Jeremy says his father phoned him prior to his call to Maldon then searched through the directory for Chelmsford police this then pushes the call made from NB to an earlier time which co-insides with JB's call to JM.

What are we left with? Human error that makes it impossible to conclude when any call took place at all. 

Its really does not matter to me whether anyone believes a call was made from NB it could never be proved that there was one. Like it can never be proved that NB called Jeremy. There are no witnesses to either or documentation from BT.

[lookout]

At minimum it was removed before Jeremy left WHF, he could have taken it off the hook at any time between entering and before leaving.  The last known use of said phone was when June was using it.  While it is possible she failed to hang it up and was off the hook from the time she stopped using it forward, I doubt that.

 

No. I doubt very much that the phone would have been off the hook from when June used it because at that time,if a phone was left off the hook,there'd be a voice telling you to replace the receiver,then there would be an audible wailing sound until it was replaced.

You're forgetting that Neville rang Jeremy.

 

[scipio_usmc]

No. I doubt very much that the phone would have been off the hook from when June used it because at that time,if a phone was left off the hook,there'd be a voice telling you to replace the receiver,then there would be an audible wailing sound until it was replaced.

You're forgetting that Neville rang Jeremy.

After a phone is off the hook for a while those sounds stop and it is just silent. I used to hang up the phone a little crooked so it was not noticable that it was off the hook, the sounds would end and no one would know.  It prevented calls I did not want to receive but also pissed off family when they found out because their calls also were not received.  Plus itf they wanted to use the phone no dialtone- they had to play with the phones to see which was off the hook.

June had no reason to do that though.

As for Jeremy's claim he received a call from Nevill there is no evidence it actually happened and I do not believe it happened. The evidence stablishes someone else shot everyone including Sheila so there is no reason to believe Nevill would have made a call to Jeremy blaming Sheila.

[No-Bits]

I don't understand what you mean.  I can't just stop posting and leave my account operational so that if one day I wanted to post again I could?

If you go to your account setting and try to delete the account, you can't.  It needs an admin to delete it.

So if you change your mind later, then you can just log on as normal.

In Caroline case, it seems that NGB has accepted the request to delete her account.

[Reader]

You're asking questions that no one can possibly give you an answer to because it's not documented. I can't and won't speculate on something I can have no knowledge of

But you did speculate - you said that it wasn't because Nevill called that Smith said the clock was inaccurate. It quite possibly was for that reason.

I am not aware that any post of mine disappeared. They all seem to be present now.

It is breathtakingly simple but again a complete waste of time because doing so serves no purpose.

I sense you didn't try it. It's not as simple as it might seem. It's difficult.

West phoned Bonnett at 3:26 to tell him about Jeremy's call. That means Jeremy called West prior to 3:26.

In my scenario, Pc West telephoned Bonnett at 03:26 to tell him about Nevill's call. That meant Nevill had called Pc West at about 03:25.

The car was not sent till 3:35.

The evidence says otherwise. You've recently posted part of Pc Saxby's statement that says he was called at 03:30 and departed at 03:35. He said he was on duty with PC Myall and Ps Bews at the time, so it's unclear why it would take them about five minutes to depart, but that's what is claimed. If the officers who travelled in CA7 are to be believed, Bonnett's log records their departure time, not the time when they were requested to depart.

Jeremy was put on hold for what he described at least 5 minutes though it seemed like a lot longer.

Whose evidence do you believe? Pc West was quite sure at Jeremy's trial that Jeremy was on hold for about 3 minutes. What Jeremy said was "About five minutes it seemed like ages. Times are approximate." He didn't say "at least 5 minutes" and he didn't say "it seemed a lot longer".

What were they doing during those minutes he was on hold?  Relaying all the things Jeremy stated and then figuring out what police station covered the area and subsequently contacted police to be sent.

That's speculation, and not confirmed by Bonnett's statements. In particular, Bonnett didn't log Sheila's age as 27, which is what Jeremy told Pc West (according to Pc West's log).

Your claim that police say they were contacted earlier than 3:35 is misleading because the only cop who provided a time was Saxby and he said around 3:30 he was not sure of the exact time.

That's incorrect. Pc Saxby used the word "about", but didn't say he was not sure of the exact time. In his statement of 23 September 1985, Ps Bews said "... having left Witham Police station about 3.35 am the same day in company with Pc 1509 Myall and Pc 1995 Saxby. The information from Chelmsford Police Station about 3.30 am the same day."

So he didn't dispute it could have been 3:35.

He had no reason to dispute something that wasn't put to him. Pc Saxby and Ps Bews gave the same times. It's common practice to use the word "about".

. . . about 3:30 is several minutes after West had already contacted Bonnett regarding Jeremy's call.

It's about 6 minutes before Jeremy's call to the police at 03:36, as logged by Pc West.

The police clearly stated they were told about Jeremy's call, told he was going to meet them there and said they were dispatched for that reason not dispatched because Nevill phoned police

That's based on Pc Saxby's statement of 23rd September 1985, but PC Myall's statement of 15th August 1985 merely states that they had been told to expect Jeremy, without saying anything to indicate that Jeremy's call to the police caused them to be sent.

Nevill also would have been asked who was at WHF and how many guns were there and so forth. . . .   West would have had no reason to ask for all the information about WHF and Jeremy's family had Nevill called.

We don't know what Nevill was asked. It's reasonable to suppose he was asked for his name and address. Anything beyond that is just speculation, so it isn't known that Pc West asked Jeremy for information that Nevill had already given, apart from the WHF address and telephone number and Sheila's age (which, as noted before, was given differently).

West testified that he asked Jeremy to provide such information.  Your suggestion that Jeremy just blurted out Sheila's age, name, who was at WHF the phone number and address is just silly.

I didn't suggest that.

Not even West suggests that he received the call from Jeremy at 3:36.

He did so at Jeremy's trial. He said he logged that time and that the time was disputed. If he'd changed his mind, the dispute would already have been resolved. He didn't say he definitely made a mistake about the time in his log.

Had Jeremy called at 3:36 and remained on the phone for 7-10 minutes like he claimed

Jeremy didn't make that claim.

. . . he certainly should have been able to remember that he rushed out of the house upon getting off the phone with police and thus could not have called Julie right after.

He didn't remember those things because they didn't happen. He called Julie before calling the police. He left home at about 3:42, which left him enough time to reach WHF without hurrying.

The only way to read that is that they refused to tell him that way if they wanted to blame him then he would not be able to use the call from Nevill to police prove that Nevill called Jeremy and thus to deny Jeremy a valid alibi.

That's just your misinterpretation. There was no need to tell Jeremy about Nevill's call. Pc West testified that he needed less than a minute on the telephone to Jeremy before calling HQIR, so he hadn't wasted time to any significant extent.

. . . you are claiming Jeremy called West at 3:36 though that would mean the call ended 3:45 leaving no time to have his car overtaken by police

Pc West's evidence allows the call's duration to be estimated as about 6 minutes, allowing Jeremy to leave at about 3:42, which is plausible.

You also absurdly suggest that West and Bonnett never were asked about receiving a call from Nevill.

That's not absurd. They weren't asked (as far as we know from their statements and evidence).

[scipio_usmc]

All I can say is that Cracknell stated in his statement that he was alerted by the control room at 3:33 yet their car CA5 did not arrive on site till 4:33

To be fair I have always thought that Jeremy called the police at appropriately 3:10 or 13:15 If this was the case then he must have phoned Maldon police slightly earlier than 3:10 or 3:15 like 3:05. If Cracknell was alerted at 3:33 by the control room and the call lasted, say, 10 minutes that brings the time back to 3:23 but if the call ended at 3:26 then its likely that the call was made at 3:15.

So, if Jeremy says his father phoned him prior to his call to Maldon then searched through the directory for Chelmsford police this then pushes the call made from NB to an earlier time which co-insides with JB's call to JM.

What are we left with? Human error that makes it impossible to conclude when any call took place at all. 

Its really does not matter to me whether anyone believes a call was made from NB it could never be proved that there was one. Like it can never be proved that NB called Jeremy. There are no witnesses to either or documentation from BT.

Bonnett was very adamant about West contacting him at 3:26 so Jeremy's call was clearly several minutes earlier and clearly he phoned Julie before calling police.

Since there supposedly were police at Witham it is unclear whether he really called them or they truly didn't answer.  It is unknown whether that was just a story to try to account for a lapse in time before calling West or he really did try.  Either could be the truth there is no way to know.

It is quite clear Nevill never phoned though.  They would have dispatched police on the basis of such call, would have told Jeremy about such call and woudl nto have taken down all the same information already obtained from Nevill.  Police would have been aware of the call and would have used such to strengthen their assertion it was a murder suicide.  They had that believe until the lab personnel disagreed in September.

It is not just  acomplete absence of evidence of a call by Nevill to police but there is evidence that demonstrates such call didn't happen.

[Patti]

Bonnett was very adamant about West contacting him at 3:26 so Jeremy's call was clearly several minutes earlier and clearly he phoned Julie before calling police.

Since there supposedly were police at Witham it is unclear whether he really called them or they truly didn't answer.  It is unknown whether that was just a story to try to account for a lapse in time before calling West or he really did try.  Either could be the truth there is no way to know.

It is quite clear Nevill never phoned though.  They would have dispatched police on the basis of such call, would have told Jeremy about such call and woudl nto have taken down all the same information already obtained from Nevill.  Police would have been aware of the call and would have used such to strengthen their assertion it was a murder suicide.  They had that believe until the lab personnel disagreed in September.

It is not just  acomplete absence of evidence of a call by Nevill to police but there is evidence that demonstrates such call didn't happen.

He must have called Witham otherwise he would not have known that there was no one there.  West called an officer from Witham on the radio and I believe the station was not manned that night to the public.  West then called headquarters to inform them. Under examination West was asked if headquarters would receive 999 calls and West said yes they would. Anyway, I don't know where I am going with this yet...I'll be back lol 

[scipio_usmc]

I sense you didn't try it. It's not as simple as it might seem. It's difficult.

In my scenario, Pc West telephoned Bonnett at 03:26 to tell him about Nevill's call. That meant Nevill had called Pc West at about 03:25.

Your scenario is entirely made up though.  That is the whole point you just made up a call from Nevill out of thin air and even the time out of thin air.  Bonnett stated in no uncertain terms 3:26 is when West called to report a call from Jeremy. In order to support your fairytale you had to make up that Nevill took the phone off the hook and left the phone off the hook for no rational reason for a long time.  Then after 10 minutes pass he phones police because he figures Jeremy should have been able to get there in 10 minutes and he will never come.  So in his urgency he looks up the number to call a station that is NOT his local station instead of dialing 999. 

West and bonnett deny this, West and Bonnett wrote NOTHING in their notebooks and the police they call say they were told Jeremy phoned police and that is why they were being dispatched.  You made up a load of nonsense out of thin air all because you want to make up something to support Jeremy.  That is the bottom line.  You are being thoroughly dishonest and lost all crediblity in my eyes completely. 

The evidence says otherwise. You've recently posted part of Pc Saxby's statement that says he was called at 03:30 and departed at 03:35. He said he was on duty with PC Myall and Ps Bews at the time, so it's unclear why it would take them about five minutes to depart, but that's what is claimed. If the officers who travelled in CA7 are to be believed, Bonnett's log records their departure time, not the time when they were requested to depart.

No you are ignoring the evidence to suit your agenda.  The statement said they were called AROUND 3:30 it was an estimation not an attempt to be to the minute and didn't say anything about departing at 3:35.  It says that they received a call and left for WHF around 3:30.

Moreover you are ignoring they say there were told to go there because Jeremy had phoned which proves the 3:26 call Bonnett received referenced a call from Jeremy not Nevill.

Had Jeremy called at 3:36 police would have arrived before he did and they never would have passed him as he sat on the side of the road letting them go by.

Whose evidence do you believe? Pc West was quite sure at Jeremy's trial that Jeremy was on hold for about 3 minutes. What Jeremy said was "About five minutes it seemed like ages. Times are approximate." He didn't say "at least 5 minutes" and he didn't say "it seemed a lot longer".

I will believe evidence not your made up nonsense.  It makes no difference whether Jeremy was on hold for 3 minutes of 5.  It makes no difference whether Jeremy's call in total lasted 6 minutes or 10.  A 6 minute call still doesn't help you at all.  You are just making up nonsense for your agenda and demonstraitng a complete lack of integrity in the process.

That's speculation, and not confirmed by Bonnett's statements. In particular, Bonnett didn't log Sheila's age as 27, which is what Jeremy told Pc West (according to Pc West's log).

The speculation is all yours including WILD ABSURD speculation that because the age is different for Sheila that means there were 2 different callers both of whome could not recall her age or last name. If Nevill had already given HSeila's name and age to West he would not have asked Jeremy for an age and name so this harms your claims it doesn't help.  Your claims are ridicilous wild fairytales that are completely and totally dispted by all the evidence you just keep ignoring the evidence and making up nonsense.   

That's incorrect. Pc Saxby used the word "about", but didn't say he was not sure of the exact time. In his statement of 23 September 1985, Ps Bews said "... having left Witham Police station about 3.35 am the same day in company with Pc 1509 Myall and Pc 1995 Saxby. The information from Chelmsford Police Station about 3.30 am the same day."
He had no reason to dispute something that wasn't put to him. Pc Saxby and Ps Bews gave the same times. It's common practice to use the word "about".

About means around and is used to approximate.  What was incorrect was you claiming tha tin their statements they indicated recieivng a call at 3:30 and them leaving at 3:35.  They indicated they received a call and then left and hat this all occurred around 3:30.  You twist to try to pretend your wild specilation ight be possible and again I stress they said they were told to go to WHF because Jeremy had called police which proves the reaosn why they were going was Jeremy had already called.  WHich completely demolishes your bunk that they were sent because of Nevill's call and that Jeremy called after this at 3:36. 

It's about 6 minutes before Jeremy's call to the police at 03:36, as logged by Pc West.
That's based on Pc Saxby's statement of 23rd September 1985, but PC Myall's statement of 15th August 1985 merely states that they had been told to expect Jeremy, without saying anything to indicate that Jeremy's call to the police caused them to be sent.

So Saxby is lying and lied in his notebook and the others all lied in their notebooks?  How could they be told to expect Jeremy if Jeremy had not yet called and they were being sent because Nevill phoned?   You keep playing games and while they might work with someone stupid and ignorant they are just making you look like you are dishoenst you shoudl keep that in mind.  Your claims are making a big hit to your integrity.   

You are accusing peopel of lying based on nothing at all but nonsense you made up and disregarding clear evidence to suit your agenda.

We don't know what Nevill was asked. It's reasonable to suppose he was asked for his name and address. Anything beyond that is just speculation, so it isn't known that Pc West asked Jeremy for information that Nevill had already given, apart from the WHF address and telephone number and Sheila's age (which, as noted before, was given differently).

West said he asked Jeremy for the phone number and address of WHF and SHeila's name and age.  You just admitted he woudl have obitnied these from Nevill so why would he have asked jeremy?

We don't know that West would have asked Nevill who else was at WHF and what weapons were there?  They are natural questions and he posed these questions to Jeremy so clearly woudl have posed them to Nevill.  All you are doing is trying to dishonestly deny that he asked Jeremy the same things he alreayd would have obtained ot Nevill.  Also to dishoenstly suggest he would have no reason to tell Jeremy Nevill phoned.  Your games demosntrate yo uknow you are not being candid you should just give it up alreayd ypou severly lost this debate and all you are doing is domonstraitng how far you will go to try to distort to pretend Nevill called so that you can say you have evidence to suggest Jeremy is innocent.

I didn't suggest that.
He did so at Jeremy's trial. He said he logged that time and that the time was disputed. If he'd changed his mind, the dispute would already have been resolved. He didn't say he definitely made a mistake about the time in his log.

West admitted he may have misread the clock but also admitted he might have written down the time at the end of the call instead of beginning.

Jeremy didn't make that claim.
He didn't remember those things because they didn't happen. He called Julie before calling the police. He left home at about 3:42, which left him enough time to reach WHF without hurrying.

He said he was on hold for 3-5 minutes.  He spoke to West before being placed on hold and after.  Your suggestion is that the entire call lasted no more than 5 minutes and he instantly was out the door, it takes time to lock a house and walk to a car, start it...

Again though you ignore how the police said they were told they were going because of a call from jeremy.

That's just your misinterpretation. There was no need to tell Jeremy about Nevill's call. Pc West testified that he needed less than a minute on the telephone to Jeremy before calling HQIR, so he hadn't wasted time to any significant extent.
Pc West's evidence allows the call's duration to be estimated as about 6 minutes, allowing Jeremy to leave at about 3:42, which is plausible.

I would have to last no more than 5 minutes and the call would have to have been exactly 3:36:00 or your timetable still won't work. A call at 3:36:55 that ends at 3:42:00 is five minutes but six minutes would push it to 3:43 and by the time he is out the door it is too late.

Still though you ignore the testimony of all involved that they responde to WHF as a result of Jeremy's call and far form it being  amisinterpretation that West woudl have told Jeremy that Nevill calle dit is a fact.  You are being so dishoenst on such point that in my eyes I consider you to be bereft of integrity.

You have sunk in my eyes to around the level of mike which is regrettable because I thought much more of you.

No way would West have taken the same information he alreayd asked from Nevill including Nevill's name, age, address phone number and so forth all to conceal that Nevill had called.

A good example of your lack of integrity is how you denied making the following claim and keep running from it when I challenge you to explain what possible meaning it could have other than suggesting that West kept it a secret in case police later wanted to blame Jeremy and hide the call from Nevill because it would help Jeremy:

"Although Jeremy seemed straightforward, West couldn't know that he wouldn't later be accused of having hired someone to go to WHF and kill his family. There was no pressing need to tell him anything about Nevill's call"

You clearly suggested that West wanted to keep it from Jeremy in case they wanted to accuse him of involvement later so they could conceal the call ever happened and thus deny Jeremy an alibi.
 

That's not absurd. They weren't asked (as far as we know from their statements and evidence).

It is absurd to keep suggesting that if asked directly whether Nevill called they might say yes.  They didn't indicate any call in their notebooks, didn't indicate any call on thier logs, didn't indicate a call in any of their statements, didn't indicate a call to Jeremy and didn't indicate a call to police they told police Jeremy called.

You ar eplaying ridiculous games to support something you made up entirely and it is not becoming at all it leaves you looking like you are willing to do anything no matter how pathetic to pretend Jeremy is innocent no matter how dishonest such might be.

[scipio_usmc]

He must have called Witham otherwise he would not have known that there was no one there.  West called an officer from Witham on the radio and I believe the station was not manned that night to the public.  West then called headquarters to inform them. Under examination West was asked if headquarters would receive 999 calls and West said yes they would. Anyway, I don't know where I am going with this yet...I'll be back lol 

The officers were at the station when they got the radio call. It was thus manned at the time we don't know if the phones would have been answered or not by them. Sometimes peopel asnwer because they think someone might be trying to reach them othertimes they will ignore it assuming it is a call not for them specifically and something they don't want to deal with.

The significance of HQ receiving 999 calls is that any such call would have been received by HQ instead of West.  That is where that point leads to.  Had Jeremy or his father dialed 999 West would not have been in the picture. 

[Reader]

Your scenario is entirely made up though.

I didn't make up the logs and statements that I have used. As we don't have absolute proof that Nevill did (or didn't) call, any scenario will consider some things that haven't been proved.

. . . you just made up a call from Nevill out of thin air and even the time out of thin air.

I didn't. I read this idea in a post by MT many years ago. The times I've suggested are related to times in the available logs and statements.

Bonnett stated in no uncertain terms 3:26 is when West called to report a call from Jeremy.

Are you referring to Bonnett's log? That log mentions a message from the son of Mr Bamber, and you choose to interpret that as a reference to the preceding part of the log as well as the information about the guns at WHF. That's your choice, not something that Bonnett gave "in no uncertain terms".

. . . you had to make up that Nevill took the phone off the hook and left the phone off the hook for no rational reason for a long time.

I didn't suggest that.

Then after 10 minutes pass he phones police because he figures Jeremy should have been able to get there in 10 minutes and he will never come.

I didn't suggest that either. There is no 10-minute pause by Nevill in my scenario.

. . . they were told Jeremy phoned police and that is why they were being dispatched.

No, just Pc Saxby... in September 1985... I don't believe parts of his statement.

The statement said they were called AROUND 3:30 it was an estimation.

The statement says "about 03:30", not "around 03:30". Pc Saxby goes on to state "As a result of this at about 03:35 on the same day I left in company of Ps Bews and Pc Myall", etc. This time of about 03:35 matches Bonnett's record in his log of 03:35 as the departure time of car CA07.

Had Jeremy called at 3:36 police would have arrived before he did and they never would have passed him as he sat on the side of the road letting them go by.

Why? Jeremy would have taken about 6 minutes to reach the place where he was overtaken. Also, the police didn't say that he sat on the side of the road. They estimated his speed.

It makes no difference whether Jeremy was on hold for 3 minutes of 5.

So you can accept Pc West's estimate given in his evidence. A 6-minute call allows Jeremy to reach WHF at a normal speed.

. . . speculation that because the age is different for Sheila that means there were 2 different callers both of whom could not recall her age or last name.

I didn't say that, and you have supplied the word "means" and the notion that they couldn't recall her age. According to your scenario, Pc West wrote "27" in his log, then telephoned Bonnett and said "26" (or he said "27", but Bonnett thought he'd said "26"). Also, you hold he substituted "berserk" for "crazy" (and various other changes) . According to you, he didn't even log the time of Jeremy's call correctly (despite the fact that logging the time is a routine part of his job).

They indicated they received a call and then left and that this all occurred around 3:30.

They didn't use the words "this all occurred around". You made that bit up.

So Saxby is lying and lied in his notebook

I haven't seen his notebook, but you're getting the idea.

. . . he would have obtained these from Nevill, so why would he have asked Jeremy?

He wanted Jeremy's information.

Your suggestion is that the entire call lasted no more than 5 minutes and he instantly was out the door

I didn't use the words "no more than" and I didn't use the words "he instantly was out the door".

A call at 3:36:55 that ends at 3:42:00 is five minutes but six minutes would push it to 3:43 and by the time he is out the door it is too late.

I didn't say Jeremy called at 3:36:55. Why is 3:43 too late? According to Pc West's log, the police reached WHF at 3:50am.

. . . you ignore the testimony of all involved that they responded to WHF as a result of Jeremy's call

What testimony are you talking about? Just Pc Saxby's statement?

"Although Jeremy seemed straightforward, West couldn't know that he wouldn't later be accused of having hired someone to go to WHF and kill his family. There was no pressing need to tell him anything about Nevill's call"

Are you claiming that Pc West did know?

It is absurd to keep suggesting that if asked directly whether Nevill called they might say yes.

I haven't made that suggestion.

The officers were at the station when they got the radio call.

However, they didn't clarify how recently they'd got back to the police station.

[scipio_usmc]

I didn't make up the logs and statements that I have used. As we don't have absolute proof that Nevill did (or didn't) call, any scenario will consider some things that haven't been proved.

You are ignoring what the logs state and pretending that the logs support a call being received from Nevill.  The logs do not in any way do so.  You have nothing at all to suggest a call was made by Nevill it is entirely made up and ignored all the evidence that establishes such never happened.  You are playing worthless games because you don't want to admit you have only blind faith that Jeremy is innocent and nothing else.

I didn't. I read this idea in a post by MT many years ago. The times I've suggested are related to times in the available logs and statements.

Your defense that Mike made it up not you helps not one bit.  In fact in a way it makes it worse that you are advocating someothing obviously made up by someone who has a history of making up things.  The logs offer no support a all for a call being made by Nevill, nor do the notebooks of the dispatchers, the various testimony of the dispatchers, notebooks of police, testimony of police or of Jeremy himself.  Denying reality doesn't make it go away it just makes the person ignoring it look foolish or dishonest.

Are you referring to Bennett's log? That log mentions a message from the son of Mr Bamber, and you choose to interpret that as a reference to the preceding part of the log as well as the information about the guns at WHF. That's your choice, not something that Bonnett gave "in no uncertain terms".

It does mean it in no uncertain terms.  You are ignoring Bonnetts statements including his notes that he wrote this log to refer to Jeremy's call to West and ignoring the plain language.  You are intentionally choosing to interpret it wrongly and thus you have no valid position. 

It says the message above was passed to CD West from the son AFTER THE PHONE WENT DEAD.  The interpretation you choose to select completely ignores the actual words used.  There are 2 sentences one about the message being passed after the phone went dead and then a messageAFTER about the guns.  If Bonnett were writing that a message about guns was passed he woudl have written one sentence not 2.  Your interpretation is that he wrote:

"The following message was passed by Jeremy to Pc West:  that there were various shotguns".  That's no what he wrote at all.  What he worte was that the preceeding message was passed by Jeremy and indeed both Bonnett and West say that such message was passed by Jeremy and Jeremy admits he passed such message.  Your reading is dishonest and completely untenable. The message Jeremy passed was that Nevill said Sheila was going crazy and had a gun then the phone was disconnected.  That is what Bonnett's log says that Jeremy claims the following message was passed to him by Nevill then the phone was disconnected. 

The phone being disconnected is totally irrelevant to the supposed noting of what guns were at WHF and it would have been 1 sentence if he was writing that just the gun message was passed by Jeremy.  There was a message written down on the paper.  Then Bonnett wrote message was passed to CD by Bamber's son after call was disconnected.  No one with any integrity would try pretending that comment was not referring to the message written prior.     

I didn't suggest that.
I didn't suggest that either. There is no 10-minute pause by Nevill in my scenario.

Yes you did suggest both.  You said that Nevill took the phone off the hook to call police but did not know the number so he left it off the hook as he went to look up the numbers and that is why Jeremy got a busy signal. 

You suggest that Jeremy did not phone police until 3:36.  You are attributing the actual timing of Jeremy's call (which was at least a minutes prior to 3:26) to Nevill.  That leaves a gap of 10 minutes or so between when Nevill allegedly Jeremy and Nevill called the police. 

You have tried to acocunt for this with more inventions just liek saying maybe Nevill called jeremy later than Jeremy thought or he left the phone off the hook as he went to look up the numbers.  All you do is make up excuses and nonsense to try to find a way to pretend your claims could be true though your excuses demosntrate even you realize this never happened you are just being dishonest. 

Not only do you have not a shred of evidence to suggest a call from Nevill by police there is considerable evidence that proves no such call was made.

No, just Pc Saxby... in September 1985... I don't believe parts of his statement.

More games from you.  You are pretending that the only cop who said they were told they were dispatched because of a call from Jeremy was Saxby, that he is lying and that other police would say soemthing different though their notes and such make clear eveyrone is in agreement with Saxby.  You are suggesting that he lied and everyone else just wasn't asked sufficiently for them to detial the call by Nevill.

You assert what suits you and ignore what doesn't in other words you are distorting.   

The statement says "about 03:30", not "around 03:30". Pc Saxby goes on to state "As a result of this at about 03:35 on the same day I left in company of Ps Bews and Pc Myall", etc. This time of about 03:35 matches Bonnett's record in his log of 03:35 as the departure time of car CA07.

About means around- they mean the same exact thing.  He could not recall the exact time he got the call that is why the term about was used it was an approximation.  He doesn't know how long it took him and the boys to get ready.  In the meantime he got the 3:35 time from the logs. That is why he was able to give a time for when he left.

In the meantime this fails to help you because Jeremy called before 3:30, before 3:26 even because at 3:26 West called Bonnett.

You grossly distort the log to pretend it says otherwise, and ignore a host of evidence that proves this call was from jerey including saying you refuse to believe Saxby's claim that they were told about Jeremy's call when dispatched. You refuse to believe that West would have told Jeremy his father alreayd called and insist he would have taken the same info he already got from Jeremy.  You even absurdely suggest  he alreayd dispatched police before Jeremy's call but put Jeremy on hold to figure out what police station covers the area so a car coudl be dispatched.  Why would they put him on hold and have to look it up if they already knew and had already dispatched a car?  Your claims are so absurd that one has to wonder why you make them.  It places your credibility in the toilet.  This means you are not only saying Saxby lied but West when West testified that he placed Jeremy on hold to look up the station that covered the area and dispatch a car. 

Based on what evidence did they lie?  You have none!

The funny part is you say West lied an dyet suggest that had West been asked about Nevill's call he woudl have admitted it took place.  He went through countless efforts to conceal it supposedly but would have admitted it if asked.  That's absurd.   

Even lookou admitted it made no sense for Nevill to call both Jeremy and police and if Nevill did decide to call police he would have dialed 999 the suggestion Nevill would have called his non-local Chelmsford station is nonsense. 

Not one thing you claim makes sense.  You have to disregard all logic and all evidence to try making the claims you do which demonstrates they are claims made in bad faith.

Why? Jeremy would have taken about 6 minutes to reach the place where he was overtaken. Also, the police didn't say that he sat on the side of the road. They estimated his speed.

He told police he stopped to put on more clothing because he was cold.  The point in any event was he was in front of them. 6 minutes to drive that far to be able to be infrotn of them still requires a least  a minute to lock the house and walk to and start the car before even putting the car in drive. 

There was not enough time for him to get there and your claim that the called ended at 3:42 for that to happen.  You are playing games for naught and the faster he ran out of the house after calling police the more obviousl he was lying about calling Julie after police.  It is not credible he just made a mistake and forgot he rushed out the door like a bolt of lightning as soon as he hung up the phone with police.

Nor could he do so unless he dressed prior to calling police.  you ignroe that as well, he would have needed time to dress not just time to lock his door and walk to his car and start it.   

So you can accept Pc West's estimate given in his evidence. A 6-minute call allows Jeremy to reach WHF at a normal speed.

6 minutes on the road but it would have taken addiitonal time to dress an dget to his car and start it.  Your timetable doesn't workk no matter how much you strain and wish it would and has far too much evidence against it. 

I didn't say that, and you have supplied the word "means" and the notion that they couldn't recall her age. According to your scenario, Pc West wrote "27" in his log, then telephoned Bonnett and said "26" (or he said "27", but Bonnett thought he'd said "26"). Also, you hold he substituted "berserk" for "crazy" (and various other changes) . According to you, he didn't even log the time of Jeremy's call correctly (despite the fact that logging the time is a routine part of his job).

Yes I get the idea loud and clear you are making up nonsense because of your agenda and can't be trusted at all.  You didn't even things through the garbage you are making up clearly as I already demosntrated how stupid this claim of yours is.

Far from your claim that you took this theory from Mike you took some of his claims and you modified them yourself.  Mike's claim was that Nevill called Bonnett HIMSELF.  Your claim is that Nevill called West and that Nevill's message was passed to Bonnett from West.

So according to YOU not according to me  West relayed the message where Bonnett wrote synonyms for words that West used.  According to YOU West told Bonnett either 26 or 27 and Bonnett wrote down 26.
It is your claim that whatever Bonnett wrote was told to him by West.

You are making the wild claim that because Bonnett used some different words than West- words that are synonyms- that there is another log out there from West with such exact language.  Ther emust be a log out there where West wrote the age as 26 and where West wrote verbatim what was on Bonnetts log as opposed to each paraphrasing and thus using different synonyms. 

Your claim is ridiculously dumb.  It is sheer idiocy to say that because West wrote 27 and Bonnett
wrote 26 for Sheila's age that means West must have fielded a call previously from Nevill where Nevill told West that Sheila's age was 26 and that the log is thus referring to Nevill's call.

It is an argument that is invented out of nothing which makes no sense at all.

It is also sheer idiocy to say that for sure West would have read verbatim off his log instead of speaking off the top of his head to Bonnett and that Bonnett in turn would write verbatim what he was told so both logs would match to the lette rin every single word and that if they don't that is proof that the logs refer to different calls and that 1 reflects a call from Jeremy while the other is recounting a call from Nevill.
Thus there has to be another log West wrote reflecting a call by Nevill that has the same things as Bonnett's log verbatim.

This argument is so patently absurd that it is not even a claim that can be made in good faith.

They didn't use the words "this all occurred around". You made that bit up.
I haven't seen his notebook, but you're getting the idea.

Yes I get the idea you are to biased to be honest and rational.  You are ignoring that about is an approximation and ignoring that the defense has their notebooks and thus is it clear there ar eno notebooks that reference a call by Nevill period.  Saying tha tbecause you didn't see them that holds out hope they might reference a call by Nevill is ridiculous the defense would have been all over such claim if there were actually any evidence to support it.

You play game after game after game and all you are doing in the process are showing yourself to be thoroughly dishonest.

It is hilarious that you are accusing Saxby of lying based on no evidence whatsoever, the only lying I see is coming from you.

He wanted Jeremy's information.

Totally absurd!

You are humilating yourself completely and totally and also dishonestly running away from your own claims.

Everyone reading this can see how you REFUSE to try to explain how the following is not suggesting that West set out to conceal the call from Nevill in case they wanted to frame Jeremy:

"Although Jeremy seemed straightforward, West couldn't know that he wouldn't later be accused of having hired someone to go to WHF and kill his family. There was no pressing need to tell him anything about Nevill's call"

Clearly the above says that West thought they might want to blame Jeremy and if so they would illegally conceal Nevill's call completely and totally.  So he made sure not to give away that such clal had been received.  You denied making this pathetic claim but you did I didn't lie as you tried to suggest.

You don't even have enough honesty to address your own claims.

Be that as it may, you new claim that he wanted Jeremy's information and failed to disclose the call for that reason is ABSURD for 2 reasons.

1) Nevill would have spoken to police AFTER he spooke to Jeremy.  The latest most up to date information would have been given to police from Nevill directly the information given to Jeremy was older!  For that reason alone police would not care so much about what he told Jeremy. 

It would be like me calling a relative to report a bear on my street then calling police to report a current location.  The relaitve claling police after me to report the older location means squat they don't give a rat's ass they want the most up to date info and from the horse's mouth.

2) That still fails to account for why West would want Nevill's name, age, address and phone number from Jeremy after already obtaining such from Nevill.   It fails to account for why West would ask 
for Sheila's name and age after already obtaining such from Nevill.  It fails to account for why West would ask Jeremy who was at WHF and the other things asked if he already obtained such information.

Let's go back to the bear example.  Why would the cop ask my relative for my address and phone number and all the various details he alreayd had?  The cop would say I just spke to John and he told me all about the bear it is being taken care of.  He woudl not pretend it is the first he heard of it and ask for outdated information and all my address and contact information that he already had.

Saying that they wanted Jeremy's full account so asked him for everything they already had is sheer idiocy as is suggesting there was no reason to tell him that Nevill had called.  Your own made up fairytale is that they already dispatched police prior to Jeremy's clal.  That alone is a reason to say Nevill called.  Nevill called we already dispatched police don't worry.  West would not have put him on hold to contact Bonnett period let alone to look up which police station to contact so police oculd be dispatched. 

You are no more trustworthy than Mike that is what has come from all this.
 

I didn't use the words "no more than" and I didn't use the words "he instantly was out the door".
I didn't say Jeremy called at 3:36:55. Why is 3:43 too late? According to Pc West's log, the police reached WHF at 3:50am.

Because it would have taken Jeremy time to get dressed, lock his door, walk to his car and start it before he coudl even get on the road.  The few minutes invovled in getting out the door is long enough too kill any chance of your timetabel being even remotely possible but there is considerable other evidence that proves your claims to be nonsense and it is quite clear you made up the entire thing.  You have not a shred of evidence to support your claims it is all nonsense and consists of you saying:

1)  West and Bonnett set out to conceal there was a call by Nevill in case police wanted rto frame Jeremy
2) West thus pretended he never received a call from Nevill and acted as if the call from Jeremy was the first one so took down everything from Jeremy that he had already obtained from nevilll
3) West and Bonnett made no references to Nevill's call in their notebooks or any statements
4) Police like Saxby lied about being dispatched because of Jeremy's call
5) Police who believed Sheila did it made no reference to Nevill's call in support of such assessment ever though it would have been high on the list of evidence supporting their claim and let such call be buried under the rug.

This is your outrageous argument and you have NOTHING at all to support your claims.  You don't even have reasonable suspicion you made the whole thing up just to support your agenda. 

What testimony are you talking about? Just Pc Saxby's statement?

No all testimonial evidence which means all notes, verbal and written statements, and court testimony.

The testimonial evidence of everyone establishes that the police were dispatched as a result of Jeremy's call.  West said such in his court testimony even.  He said Jeremy was put on hold so they could arrange for police to be dispatched.  Your games don't work you are stuck having to say eveyrone lied and thus you have no evidence at all to establish they lied everyone was doctored so you have nothing but your bare bone allegations that make no sense at all and completely ignore reality. 

Are you claiming that Pc West did know?

Of course West didn't know they would accuse Jeremy which makes your claim that he concealed Nevill's call from Jeremy in case they might want to accuse him even more absurd.

Your allegation was:

That West concealed the call because they might want to blame Jeremy and in that event the call from Nevill would be harmful to their case so they would need to pretend it never happened.

That is patently ridiculous.

You can't come up with a rational reason that West would conceal Nevill's call from Jeremy and in support of such concealment would ask Jeremy for the same information he already obtained from Nevill and even place him on hold to pretend he was dispatching a car as a result. 

You are just spouting one nonsense claim after another digging your hole deeper.

I haven't made that suggestion.

Then why do you keep stressing that they were not asked whether Nevill made a call so beve rdenied it?  The clear implication of stressing they never denied it is that they would say he called if asked.  There is no other reason to bring such point up.

However, they didn't clarify how recently they'd got back to the police station.

It makes no difference at all how long they were at the station before West called them at the station to tell them to go to WHF.

[Jan]

Insulting and personal comments again. You can't help yourself can you.you are incapable of presenting your argument without calling the op dishonest. When they are not. Well I have been doing some research away from this forum. And I think a lot of your posts are no more than smoke and mirrors. Imo so I know you won't take it seriously.