Dodgy guns - handed to Bunting by two unidentified men

[mike tesko]

Dodgy guns - handed to Bunting by two unidentified men

[mike tesko]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

[VORTEX]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

Exactly! This is a key question that remains unanswered and has puzzled me for quite some time. It may help to uncover another of the "mystery" areas in this case. If they have done nothing wrong name them and clear them Mr Bunting and if he not willing to do so EP should force him to.

[ngb1066]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

Exactly! This is a key question that remains unanswered and has puzzled me for quite some time. It may help to uncover another of the "mystery" areas in this case. If they have done nothing wrong name them and clear them Mr Bunting and if he not willing to do so EP should force him to.

I have a suspicion that the police did not press Mr Bunting too hard on this because they did not believe his story about having been given the two firearms by two persons.  Mr Bunting was trying to deal with his own difficulty in having shotguns and firearms illegally in his possession and was therefore owning up to the police and applying for the necesssary shotgun and firearm certificates.  I may be missing something here but I have a feeling that this probably has no significance as far as the events at WHF are concerned.   On the other hand there may be other factors connected with this which are significant and if so I would be interested to learn about them.

   

[mike tesko]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

Exactly! This is a key question that remains unanswered and has puzzled me for quite some time. It may help to uncover another of the "mystery" areas in this case. If they have done nothing wrong name them and clear them Mr Bunting and if he not willing to do so EP should force him to.

I have a suspicion that the police did not press Mr Bunting too hard on this because they did not believe his story about having been given the two firearms by two persons.  Mr Bunting was trying to deal with his own difficulty in having shotguns and firearms illegally in his possession and was therefore owning up to the police and applying for the necesssary shotgun and firearm certificates.  I may be missing something here but I have a feeling that this probably has no significance as far as the events at WHF are concerned.   On the other hand there may be other factors connected with this which are significant and if so I would be interested to learn about them.

   

-------------------

With respect - the markings which have been described as "Burn marks" found on the back of Ralph Bambers neck, could have been made by the barrel's of the unusual double gun / rifle having been thrust into the back of Ralph Bambers neck, and for this reason, we need to know the truth about how Bunting came to be in possession of such a very distinctive weapon?

[ngb1066]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

Exactly! This is a key question that remains unanswered and has puzzled me for quite some time. It may help to uncover another of the "mystery" areas in this case. If they have done nothing wrong name them and clear them Mr Bunting and if he not willing to do so EP should force him to.

I have a suspicion that the police did not press Mr Bunting too hard on this because they did not believe his story about having been given the two firearms by two persons.  Mr Bunting was trying to deal with his own difficulty in having shotguns and firearms illegally in his possession and was therefore owning up to the police and applying for the necesssary shotgun and firearm certificates.  I may be missing something here but I have a feeling that this probably has no significance as far as the events at WHF are concerned.   On the other hand there may be other factors connected with this which are significant and if so I would be interested to learn about them.

   

-------------------

With respect - the markings which have been described as "Burn marks" found on the back of Ralph Bambers neck, could have been made by the barrel's of the unusual double gun / rifle having been thrust into the back of Ralph Bambers neck, and for this reason, we need to know the truth about how Bunting came to be in possession of such a very distinctive weapon?

Mike
I understand the point you are making.  You believe that a second weapon may have been used at WHF and that the double gun/rifle may have been that weapon.  That does raise some difficult questions, however.  Either the second weapon was used by a second killer or both were used by the same person.  If the killler was Sheila, why was the second weapon not found by police at WHF?  In terms of Jeremy's appeal my feeling is that this aspect of the case may create more problems than possible solutions.  However I accept that EP should reveal what enquiries were made and what happened to the two firearms, and in particular whether they wre forensically  examined.

[mike tesko]

Why didn't EP insist on Bunting telling them the identities of the two persons who handed him these guns, that were linked to the Bamber investigation?

Exactly! This is a key question that remains unanswered and has puzzled me for quite some time. It may help to uncover another of the "mystery" areas in this case. If they have done nothing wrong name them and clear them Mr Bunting and if he not willing to do so EP should force him to.

I have a suspicion that the police did not press Mr Bunting too hard on this because they did not believe his story about having been given the two firearms by two persons.  Mr Bunting was trying to deal with his own difficulty in having shotguns and firearms illegally in his possession and was therefore owning up to the police and applying for the necesssary shotgun and firearm certificates.  I may be missing something here but I have a feeling that this probably has no significance as far as the events at WHF are concerned.   On the other hand there may be other factors connected with this which are significant and if so I would be interested to learn about them.

   

-------------------

With respect - the markings which have been described as "Burn marks" found on the back of Ralph Bambers neck, could have been made by the barrel's of the unusual double gun / rifle having been thrust into the back of Ralph Bambers neck, and for this reason, we need to know the truth about how Bunting came to be in possession of such a very distinctive weapon?

Mike
I understand the point you are making.  You believe that a second weapon may have been used at WHF and that the double gun/rifle may have been that weapon.  That does raise some difficult questions, however.  Either the second weapon was used by a second killer or both were used by the same person.  If the killler was Sheila, why was the second weapon not found by police at WHF?  In terms of Jeremy's appeal my feeling is that this aspect of the case may create more problems than possible solutions.  However I accept that EP should reveal what enquiries were made and what happened to the two firearms, and in particular whether they wre forensically  examined.

----------------------

It worries me about these guns...

I want to know why they are linked to the Bamber investigation, but we do not have any further information about them? I want to know if the double barrel of this unique weapon caused the marks that were found on the back of Ralph Bambers neck?

If so - who handed this weapon to Bunting, and how come those people ended up in possession of these guns that could have been used during the shootings?

You see - there were three different measurements for the diameters of entry wounds inflicted upon the five victims ( I can provide an exact breakdown of which sizes related to each victim), (a) 3/16ths, (b) 1/4 and (c) 1/2 inch...

I don't think the same gun fired all these bullets that produced all these different sized bullet (a) 3/16ths, (b) 1/4 and (c) 1/2 inch, entry wounds (as confirmed by the pathologist during autopsy)...

I think we are talking about the strong possibility that at least three different guns were used in these shootings...

[mike tesko]

I think David Shaw was / is spot on, when he talks about these different sized bullet entry wounds, and the possibility that more than one weapon fired all those bullets, or even that they all came from the sam,e batch of crime scene ammunition - I think it is all a big lie (on the part of EP)...

[mike tesko]

Wasn't Bunting Mabel Speakman's maiden name?

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I have not heard that before, where did you get that information from ?

[chelmsey]

Bunting of Great Totham?  Didnt Ann and Peter Eaton live on a farm at Little Totham at the time of the murders? Hmmm,this is very intersting!

[chochokeira]

from freebmd.org.uk


June Speakman b1924 (Maldon) Mother's maiden name Bunting

Leslie R Speakman married Mabel Bunting 1919 Maldon

(if they are the right people)

1901 census Joyces farm, Goldhanger

John Bunting , Farmer aged 62  born Tolleshunt D'Arcy
Sarah Bunting, wife, aged 55 born         "               "
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland
Joshua Bunting aged 14 born Goldhanger
Mabel Bunting aged 10 born Goldhanger

Mabel Bunting unmarried on 1911 census, aged 20, still with parents.

Mabel Bunting (born 1891 Maldon reg district) married Leslie Speakman in 1919 at Maldon

Mabel Bunting 20 1911 dau of John retired farmer and wife Sarah Goldhanger

1937 Bunting Bros Farm, bros are principle landowers Tolleshunt Major, owners Joyces and Highams Farms 1937
looks like these two from 1901census, brothers of Mabel:
 
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland

Graham J Bunting born Maldon reg district 1941 mother Chatterson

Woops, sorry, corrected mistake:

Is he Mabel Bunting's nephew?

[chochokeira]

from freebmd.org.uk


June Speakman b1924 (Maldon) Mother's maiden name Bunting

Leslie R Speakman married Mabel Bunting 1919 Maldon

(if they are the right people)

1901 census Joyces farm, Goldhanger

John Bunting , Farmer aged 62  born Tolleshunt D'Arcy
Sarah Bunting, wife, aged 55 born         "               "
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland
Joshua Bunting aged 14 born Goldhanger
Mabel Bunting aged 10 born Goldhanger

Mabel Bunting unmarried on 1911 census, aged 20, still with parents.

Mabel Bunting (born 1891 Maldon reg district) married Leslie Speakman in 1919 at Maldon

Mabel Bunting 20 1911 dau of John retired farmer and wife Sarah Goldhanger

1937 Bunting Bros Farm, bros are principle landowers Tolleshunt Major, owners Joyces and Highams Farms 1937
looks like these two from 1901census, brothers of Mabel:
 
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland

Graham J Bunting born Maldon reg district 1941 mother Chatterson

Woops, sorry, corrected mistake:

Is he Mabel Bunting's nephew?

1970 GJ Bunting at Sheepcoates Farm, Great Totham - which covered Goldhanger - Telephone Directory entry

[chochokeira]

from freebmd.org.uk


June Speakman b1924 (Maldon) Mother's maiden name Bunting

Leslie R Speakman married Mabel Bunting 1919 Maldon

(if they are the right people)

1901 census Joyces farm, Goldhanger

John Bunting , Farmer aged 62  born Tolleshunt D'Arcy
Sarah Bunting, wife, aged 55 born         "               "
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland
Joshua Bunting aged 14 born Goldhanger
Mabel Bunting aged 10 born Goldhanger

Mabel Bunting unmarried on 1911 census, aged 20, still with parents.

Mabel Bunting (born 1891 Maldon reg district) married Leslie Speakman in 1919 at Maldon

Mabel Bunting 20 1911 dau of John retired farmer and wife Sarah Goldhanger

1937 Bunting Bros Farm, bros are principle landowers Tolleshunt Major, owners Joyces and Highams Farms 1937
looks like these two from 1901census, brothers of Mabel:
 
John Bunting son aged 18 born Mayland
George Bunting son aged 16 born Mayland

Graham J Bunting born Maldon reg district 1941 mother Chatterson

Woops, sorry, corrected mistake:

Is he Mabel Bunting's nephew?

1970 GJ Bunting at Sheepcoates Farm, Great Totham - which covered Goldhanger - Telephone Directory entry

1984 telephone directory: GJ Bunting, Sheepcoates Farm, Great Totham

[chelmsey]

We know that the Baltflours and Ann Eaton took weapons from WHF following the murders.Is it possible that they included these 2 same guns and they suspected they could have been used in the murders,panicked,and then got a family member to hand them in "anonymously" ?

[ngb1066]

We know that the Baltflours and Ann Eaton took weapons from WHF following the murders.Is it possible that they included these 2 same guns and they suspected they could have been used in the murders,panicked,and then got a family member to hand them in "anonymously" ?

It is possible but there are problems with that scenario.  The two "dodgy" weapons were not covered by the firearm certificates of any of the family members so were illegal weapons.  I doubt if Nevill Bamber would have allowed them to be kept at WHF.  If family members had found them at WHF subsequently (which means that the police did not notice them) they would have been likely to hand them to the police.  There would have been no need to panic.

I am interested in Mike Tesko's theory about the possible use of the combined 20 bore shotgun/.22 rifle during the course of the shootings at WHF.  If the shotgun had been fired the end of the barrel would have been hot enough to cause the burn marks to Nevill's neck and the aperture of the 20 bore barrel would be the right size to cause such a mark.  If this weapon was used it suggests to me a third party being responsible for the murders.  Possibly holding the barrel of the weapon to Nevill's neck was a means of threatening him and inducing him to make a telephone call to Jeremy.  On the other hand there is no evidence of a shotgun being fired inside the house.  The pellets even from a 20 bore cartridge would have caused some visible damage, although in view of the lax treatment by EP of the scene it is possible this could have been overlooked.