Author Topic: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?  (Read 29881 times)

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Offline Reader

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #510 on: September 09, 2014, 02:51:AM »
How can asserting that the clock is only rarely inaccurate be a mistake if it's actually common for it to be inaccurate? Did A/Ps Smith make a mistake as well?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #511 on: September 09, 2014, 03:02:AM »
How can asserting that the clock is only rarely inaccurate be a mistake if it's actually common for it to be inaccurate? Did A/Ps Smith make a mistake as well?

West said it wasn't inaccurate and he was the one accused of making the mistake. He admitted that he probably made a mistake.
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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #512 on: September 09, 2014, 05:47:AM »
Did A/Ps Smith make a mistake as well in alleging the clock was often inaccurate?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #513 on: September 09, 2014, 05:10:PM »
Did A/Ps Smith make a mistake as well in alleging the clock was often inaccurate?

According to West he was in error and we didn't hear from any other officers.  Nor did Smith apparently indicate how minutes off he thought the clock often was let alone how he was sure it was wrong and whether it was oftem fast or slow.  Saying it was often 2 minutes fast or slow would not help you at all in the claims you would like to make.  But that is the problem, you ar enot following the evidence you are biased and want to make specific claims to support Jeremy and are twisting to try to make such claims just like you twisted to try to pretend that Jeremy did not state in his initial written statement that he phoned Julie after police.



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Offline Reader

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #514 on: September 10, 2014, 03:10:AM »
When Jeremy was interviewed in September 1985, Ds Jones told him that the control room clock was always accurate.

At Jeremy's trial, Pc West said that the clock had been inaccurate on very few occasions. Immediately after confirming A/Ps Smith was working on the night in question, PC West was asked "Would you agree with this, that the Control Room wall clock rarely shows an accurate time?" and said he disagreed with that.

Presumably, Mr Rivlin was aware that A/Ps Smith had said the clock rarely showed an accurate time.

Thus, scipio_usmc, you see to be claiming that A/Ps Smith was mistaken, that Ds Jones and Pc West were right about the clock's accuracy, but that Pc West accidentally misread the clock or wrote 0336 by mistake. If that's the case, did Pc West make another mistake in recording 0342 as the time of the check of the WHF line?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #515 on: September 10, 2014, 01:21:PM »
When Jeremy was interviewed in September 1985, Ds Jones told him that the control room clock was always accurate.

At Jeremy's trial, Pc West said that the clock had been inaccurate on very few occasions. Immediately after confirming A/Ps Smith was working on the night in question, PC West was asked "Would you agree with this, that the Control Room wall clock rarely shows an accurate time?" and said he disagreed with that.

Presumably, Mr Rivlin was aware that A/Ps Smith had said the clock rarely showed an accurate time.

Thus, scipio_usmc, you see to be claiming that A/Ps Smith was mistaken, that Ds Jones and Pc West were right about the clock's accuracy, but that Pc West accidentally misread the clock or wrote 0336 by mistake. If that's the case, did Pc West make another mistake in recording 0342 as the time of the check of the WHF line?

I don't think West did make a mistake, I think he wrote the time in after the call. He wrote down the main details of what Jeremy said and completed the rest (such as the time) after the call. Hence why Bonnett's log is timed before Wests.
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No-Bits

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #516 on: September 10, 2014, 01:26:PM »
I don't think West did make a mistake, I think he wrote the time in after the call. He wrote down the main details of what Jeremy said and completed the rest (such as the time) after the call. Hence why Bonnett's log is timed before Wests.

That would make a lot of sense.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #517 on: September 10, 2014, 02:17:PM »
When Jeremy was interviewed in September 1985, Ds Jones told him that the control room clock was always accurate.

At Jeremy's trial, Pc West said that the clock had been inaccurate on very few occasions. Immediately after confirming A/Ps Smith was working on the night in question, PC West was asked "Would you agree with this, that the Control Room wall clock rarely shows an accurate time?" and said he disagreed with that.

Presumably, Mr Rivlin was aware that A/Ps Smith had said the clock rarely showed an accurate time.

Thus, scipio_usmc, you see to be claiming that A/Ps Smith was mistaken, that Ds Jones and Pc West were right about the clock's accuracy, but that Pc West accidentally misread the clock or wrote 0336 by mistake. If that's the case, did Pc West make another mistake in recording 0342 as the time of the check of the WHF line?

A/ps Smith apparently made a claim that in his experience the clock was usually wrong, but did not say how minutes off the clock usually was, in what direction it wa susually off and how he knew it was inaccurate.  Others say he was wrong.  I have no reason to believe his claims over the others unless he produces a solid basis for how much it is usually off and how he knows this. Not only does credibility hang on specifics like how much off it was usally but that is necessary to attempt to use his claims to demonstrate something.

As I have already stated countless times West was not positive of when he wrote down the time.  He could have simply written down the time after the call ended.  He is not a 999 operator.  He wa sused to basic inquiries. He heard a major tale and was so wrapped up with the substantive details he didn't bother to write the time of the call at first.  I also have pointed out that the times on both logs should not match anyway.  It had to have taken a couple of minutes at least for Jeremy to tell the story in full answering all questions West had and West recording everything then putting him on hold.  Thus the time West called Bonnett, which is what Bonnett recorded, would not be the same as what West was recording because West was recording when his call with Jeremy was received or if he forgot to then when it ended.  By definition it should be different than what Bonnett recorded anyway.


A digital clock doesn't show seconds. That is one reason I like analog clocks/watches and use them.  It is also why the military does so.   A call at 3:23 could be 3:23:59.  That alone can cause a variation of up to 59 seconds.  A call from 3:23:59 that lasts 3 minutes and 1 second before being put on hold will be considered as lasting until 3:27 so look like an extra minute is tacked on.  If the clock West used was fast by 1 minute or 2 that would inflate the length even more.  We have no way to know the difference in time between the 2 clocks.  I doubt they were the same, most likely they were not the same in terms of seconds and could have even been a couple of minutes off.  More than a couple of minutes off would be detected and corrected though.  A couple of inutes off doesn't help at all to support your allegations.  You are grasping at straws because of bias in favor of Jeremy.

The exact time of the WHF line check doesn't matter.  All that matters is that it was checked after getting off the phone with Jeremy in response to Jeremy's call.  That fact crushes the allegation you are aking.  You don't want to fface this fact and still want to press ahead with your ridiculous claim but it does for the reasons I have stated at least 5 times now:

The police would have no reason to do a line check to test Jeremy's claims if Nevill phoned police after he phoned Jeremy. Calling police AFTER calling Jeremy not only explains why the phone would have been busy it PROVES the phone was used AFTER Jeremy's claim of the line going dead. So a call from Nevill to police refutes the notion that the phone simply sat continuously off the hook after calling Jeremy.   They did the line check BECAUSE Jeremy claimed the call was disconnected and then the phone constantly busy. Had Nevill called they would have had no need to do the line check until after police at the scene indicated they could not get in touch with the occupants and wanted to try to phone WHF to try to start negotiations.         

You also ridiculously suggest that West would keep Nevill's call a secret from Jeremy and take all of the information he already obtained from Nevill over again from Jeremy in case they wanted to conceal the call to essentially frame Jeremy.  That is ludicrous. You can't come up with a rational reaosn for Jeremy not to be told and for West to thus not need to ask Jeremy for the same information again.  Police are lazy they don't want to take the same information again if it can be avoided.

The longer you drag this charade out the more you are harming your own credibility and showing just how uch of a Jeremy zealot you are.
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Offline Reader

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #518 on: September 10, 2014, 04:33:PM »
A/ps Smith apparently made a claim that in his experience the clock was usually wrong, . . .  Others say he was wrong.  I have no reason to believe his claims . . .  the times on both logs should not match anyway.  It had to have taken a couple of minutes at least for Jeremy to tell the story in full answering all questions West had and West recording everything then putting him on hold.
So can we agree that A/Ps Smith was wrong or misleading, and Ds Jones was right? After all, there is no evidence that the clock had to be adjusted soon afterwards. However, you are calling Pc West untruthful, as he insisted at the trial that it took him less than a minute to deal with Jeremy's call prior to putting him on hold. He was quite adamant about that.

A digital clock doesn't show seconds.
Even in 1985, some digital wall clocks showed seconds.

The exact time of the WHF line check doesn't matter. All that matters is that it was checked after getting off the phone with Jeremy in response to Jeremy's call.
The police would have no reason to do a line check to test Jeremy's claims if Nevill phoned police after he phoned Jeremy.
Pc West had been told by Jeremy that the WHF line was busy, so he checked the line after Jeremy's call ended. Even if he delayed by a few minutes, that call check would have occurred well before 3:42 if Jeremy's call ended at around 3:36. That's why some people keep exaggerating the length of Jeremy's call rather than suggesting that Pc West logged the time when the call ended.

Calling police AFTER calling Jeremy not only explains why the phone would have been busy it PROVES the phone was used AFTER Jeremy's claim of the line going dead.
That's consistent with Nevill ending his call to Jeremy abruptly, then calling the police, and then taking the handset off-hook again.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #519 on: September 10, 2014, 06:58:PM »
So can we agree that A/Ps Smith was wrong or misleading, and Ds Jones was right? After all, there is no evidence that the clock had to be adjusted soon afterwards. However, you are calling Pc West untruthful, as he insisted at the trial that it took him less than a minute to deal with Jeremy's call prior to putting him on hold. He was quite adamant about that.

I don't know if Smith was right or wrong.  He didn't provide enough specifics to nail down his claim let alone explain the basis for his position.  My car clock is always a minute ahead.  If I fix it it still will be messed up and a minute ahead after a short while.  I don't know what is wrong with it.  I know it is a minute ahead because my watch is set to the Atomic Clock so I keep it accurate to the second. The variation between my watch and the car clock is constant. ALl my devices at home are off by many seconds which means at times they show different minutes than one another.  None of them are accurate like my watch. 

I can make the blanket claim that all my devices usually have the wrong time.  That doens't explain how off they are.  The statement could be true but quite meaningless because what does it matter if all my devices are 1-30 seconds off from the Atomic clock or from one another?   

We don't know whether Smith was right and there was some miscule amount it was usually off or what because his claim wasn't specific.

Nor do whe know how much difference there was between the 2 police clocks in question.  I am willing to bet they were not both identical and off by several seconds if not a minute.

As far as West's claim he only spoke to Jeremy a minute or less before putting him on hold I view that as him being mistaken, his memory is faulty.  It is not credible.  He would not instantly start writing.  he woudl hear Jeremy's claim then say ok let me take this down I need to log it. Then he would ask Jeremy for all the information he needed and again to describe the acocunt slow enough for him to write down.  It took me a minute to tell a cop there was a bear.  I didn't try to quote anything or go into some long discussion.  There was a bear near woods adjacent to a high school, that's it- simple story. Is it possible West took it as an attack and lied about how long it took to make it look like he responded faster than he did?  Possible but more likely he simply had a faulty recollection and understanding of the time involved.

Even in 1985, some digital wall clocks showed seconds.

But most do not.

Pc West had been told by Jeremy that the WHF line was busy, so he checked the line after Jeremy's call ended. Even if he delayed by a few minutes, that call check would have occurred well before 3:42 if Jeremy's call ended at around 3:36. That's why some people keep exaggerating the length of Jeremy's call rather than suggesting that Pc West logged the time when the call ended.
That's consistent with Nevill ending his call to Jeremy abruptly, then calling the police, and then taking the handset off-hook again.

We are going in circles because you don't want to face logic or reality.  WHY would West bother to check the line if Nevill made a call to police after calling Jeremy?  That would mean the phone was used AFTER Nevill called Jeremy.  West would be aware that Nevill used the phone after calling Jeremy.  The phoen call to police would be the explanation WHY the phone was busy.  The whole reason Jeremy was supposedly concerned was that the call was disconected and he was unable to call back to continue the call.   You are alleging that West received a call after this from nevill so obviously the reason for the phone being busy would be that call and no need to worry and assume that the call to Jeremy was disconnected because Nevill was killed.

Your posiiton has been shown a complete farce the longer you still try to maintain a call happened the more ridiculous you look.   

   

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Offline lookout

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #520 on: September 10, 2014, 07:59:PM »
What does it matter if a call was made or not ? It's not a hanging offence whichever way you vote.FGS !!

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #521 on: September 10, 2014, 08:47:PM »
What does it matter if a call was made or not ? It's not a hanging offence whichever way you vote.FGS !!

It matters a great deal because if Nevill had phoned police to say Sheila went crazy and had the gun then that suggests that she had the gun and was going crazy or someone put Nevill up to that call to falsely blame Sheila.  The latter is quite dubious though as who would risk Nevill telling police he was being held at gunpoint by them?  If Nevill double crosses you then you are screwed.
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Offline Reader

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #522 on: September 14, 2014, 04:31:PM »
WHY would West bother to check the line if Nevill made a call to police after calling Jeremy?
Nothing in Pc West's log or evidence indicates Jeremy told him exactly when his father had called him, so Pc West didn't know in which order Nevill made his calls. Anyway, Pc West presumably wanted to speak to Nevill if he could, and asked the operator to check the line because it was busy.

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #523 on: September 14, 2014, 04:55:PM »
West said it wasn't inaccurate and he was the one accused of making the mistake. He admitted that he probably made a mistake.
Pc West didn't say he'd probably made a mistake. He said "Well, there is a dispute over the times.  I don't know whose time is right and whose time is wrong." When asked again, he said "It is possible, although certainly there is a variance in times, yes." Nor did he ever suggest he'd written down the time when the call ended rather than the time when it began. He behaved exactly as would be expected if he'd been told not to volunteer the fact that he'd received two calls.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?
« Reply #524 on: September 14, 2014, 06:36:PM »
Pc West didn't say he'd probably made a mistake. He said "Well, there is a dispute over the times.  I don't know whose time is right and whose time is wrong." When asked again, he said "It is possible, although certainly there is a variance in times, yes." Nor did he ever suggest he'd written down the time when the call ended rather than the time when it began. He behaved exactly as would be expected if he'd been told not to volunteer the fact that he'd received two calls.

Or if he'd made a mistake.
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