Surely The Timings Are Incorrect?

[Caroline]

Jeremy was put on hold rather abruptly when he first contacted the police...

I believe, in total his call lasted around 10 minutes, but for much of that time, Jeremy was on hold, whilst Bonnet spoke to PC West...

Jeremy was held for such a long time because PC Eest was relaying to Bonnet the fact that he had received the call from the scene by Ralph Bamber. At this time, Bonnet told West that he had also received a call from the son about the same matter...

Once Bonnet had explained to PC West about Jeremys call, he spoke to Jeremy again and told him to make his way to the farm where he would be met by police who had already been dispatched to the incident...

We therefore now know that the occupants of CA07 were dispatched to attend the scene before the call from Jeremy to Bonnet terminated. Bonnet must have been told this information by PC West - therefore, West instructed the occupants of CA07 to attend the incident at the scene, not Bonnet. If West received the call at 3.26am from Ralph, he obviously contacted the occupants of CA07, before Jeremy had made his call to police at 3.36am, received by Bonnett...

So why wouldnt he have mentioned Ralf's call to Jeremy? There was no reason to keep this call secret. He also passed the call to Bonnet at 03:26 so there was no call at 03:36. West clearly made a mistake. Plus, West had to talk to Jeremy long enough to give him all of the details and for West to write it down - which would have taken longer than any 30 seconds.

[Adam]

It is doubtful Neville would phone both the police and Jeremy.

If things were so serious as to phone the police, there was no point also putting his only son in danger.

By the same token, if Neville thought Jeremy could resolve the situation, there was no point involving the police.

There is also the question of whether Neville would have time to make two phone calls.

On the massacre night Jeremy made a big effort to tell the police Neville liked to keep things private and not involve the police. Although Jeremy did not say, why if that was the case he had rang the police himself.

On the massacre night and the days before Jeremy was charged, the police never said to Jeremy or anyone else that they had heard from Neville.

Upon being charged and at trial, Jeremy stuck to his claim that Neville would phone him if his life was in danger,  rather than the police. The police agreed to an extent and never said they had heard from Neville.

Decades later after seeing 3.36am rather than 3.26am on a document, Jeremy changed his mind and said Neville did ring the police. This would mean that dozens of police officers have withheld the truth for 29 years. Even before Jeremy was a suspect. They would have lied in their Witness Statements and perjured themselves in court. With none of them retracting a word.

[Adam]

Jeremy was put on hold rather abruptly when he first contacted the police...

I believe, in total his call lasted around 10 minutes, but for much of that time, Jeremy was on hold, whilst Bonnet spoke to PC West...

Jeremy was held for such a long time because PC Eest was relaying to Bonnet the fact that he had received the call from the scene by Ralph Bamber. At this time, Bonnet told West that he had also received a call from the son about the same matter...

Once Bonnet had explained to PC West about Jeremys call, he spoke to Jeremy again and told him to make his way to the farm where he would be met by police who had already been dispatched to the incident...

We therefore now know that the occupants of CA07 were dispatched to attend the scene before the call from Jeremy to Bonnet terminated. Bonnet must have been told this information by PC West - therefore, West instructed the occupants of CA07 to attend the incident at the scene, not Bonnet. If West received the call at 3.26am from Ralph, he obviously contacted the occupants of CA07, before Jeremy had made his call to police at 3.36am, received by Bonnett...

If Jeremy phoned West at 3.36am and the call lasted 10 minutes in total. Then he rang Julie, as Jeremy said he did, how did everyone arrive at WHF by 3.48am ?

[mike tesko]

Timings are all out of sync', which helps no-one and serves no useful purpose only to cloud the issue and muddy the waters...

However, once you realise that different clocks are being used to gauge timings, a clearer picture begins to emerge...

To help everyone to understand, I propose to introduce the following useful terms to try and simplify the matter:-

(1) - Individual time reference (ITR)
(2) - Group time reference (GTR)
(3) - Real time reference (RTF)

The question I would pose regarding the time of arrival at the scene of the occupants of CA07 (3.48hrs), and the arrival of Jeremy at the scene (3.52hrs),  is which time reference, or clock was being relied upon when those timings were produced?

[Caroline]

Timings are all out of sync', which helps no-one and serves no useful purpose only to cloud the issue and muddy the waters...

However, once you realize that different clicks are being used to gauge timings, a clearer picture begins to emerge...

To help everyone to understand, I propose to introduce the following useful terms to try and simplify the matter:-

(1) - Individual time reference (ITR)
(2) - Group time reference (GTR)
(3) - Real time reference (RTF)

Thw question I would pose regarding the time of arrival at the scene of the occupants of CA07 (3.48hrs), and the arrival of Jeremy at the scene (3.52hrs),  is which time reference, or clock was being relied upon when those timings were produced?

Mike, why would Neville's call have been kept secret? It's the one thing that would have shut the relatives up and Taff wanted them to shut up. If a phone call from Neville had occurred Stan Jones would also have been aware of it and if not, Taff would have made damn sure he was. A call from Neville means no case to answer.

[mike tesko]

It was a srcret service operation. Special branch controlled what could be disclosed or withheld - almost everything llinked to this particular family protection program is withheld under pii...

[Reader]

Considering that Jeremy's call to Bonnett only lasted 30 seconds or so, before Bonnet contacted West, . . .

Some confusion there, as there wasn't a call from Jeremy to Bonnett, and Pc West called Bonnett, not the other way round, and his call to Bonnett lasted a few minutes, not 30 seconds. Pc West thought he spoke to Jeremy for less than a minute before calling Bonnett, but didn't suggest 30 seconds.

[Caroline]

It was a srcret service operation. Special branch controlled what could be disclosed or withheld - almost everything llinked to this particular family protection program is withheld under pii...

Two guys sat in a control room wouldn't know who was calling and nothing was mentioned to Jeremy about another call being received from his father and that a car was already on the way. The two control room guys would know nothing about any special branch op. This also being the case, why were journalists given information immediately after the murders - it would have all been sealed off and investigated by men in dark suits. What possible interest would SB have in an aging farmer and his family? Sorry Mike but I can't buy that.

[mike tesko]

The protection program went dratically wrong, because the actual life threatening danger came from amongst those who Special branch were supposed to have been protecting. In effect by allowing three generations of the same family under the same roof, with guns a plenty and freely available...

[Jane]

Two guys sat in a control room wouldn't know who was calling and nothing was mentioned to Jeremy about another call being received from his father and that a car was already on the way. The two control room guys would know nothing about any special branch op. This also being the case, why were journalists given information immediately after the murders - it would have all been sealed off and investigated by men in dark suits. What possible interest would SB have in an aging farmer and his family? Sorry Mike but I can't buy that.

Caroline, I've always wondered about the SB thing. My friends bro in law was a M'Lud and had protection in whose ever residence he visited as well as his own home. Neville was a magistrate which is hardly the same thing. Another friend's husband  had live in protection, but he and she were in a VERY prominent position. The Bambers were minor local gentry.

[mike tesko]

As discovered by research into this matter by GDS, during the war effort Ralph was in the RAF and was an inportant member of a group of spies who were based in the middle east. What GDS discovered was that Ralph was the only living / surviving member of the group up until the time of his death. All the other members of the spy rung and thier families had all died in mysterious circumstances in different countries. I remember being told about thid from a close friend of GDS at the time who I shall not name. The reason I got told about this was because of a police message passed from the scene for six body bags to be brought to the scene...

If Ralph was a spy who during his working lifehad worked as a key member of a secret service unit out in the middle east, why shouldn't he be afforded the protection of SB when he became an old man who was having his life threatened? Anyway, PS Woodcock worked as part of the Sb team charged with protecting the family - I don'think he was dressed in a dark suit on the night of the shootings...

[Caroline]

Caroline, I've always wondered about the SB thing. My friends bro in law was a M'Lud and had protection in whose ever residence he visited as well as his own home. Neville was a magistrate which is hardly the same thing. Another friend's husband  had live in protection, but he and she were in a VERY prominent position. The Bambers were minor local gentry.

They didn't have so much as a burglar alarm fitted until after the murders. Any kind of state protection would make sure they lived in a secure property (at the least). Someone who was an important Secret Service spy with delicate info would have had a new identity. They wouldn't leave him in the middle of nowhere like a sitting duck. I can't buy into any kind of SB scenario. Although as an argument, it's quite clever because it leads an opposing argument with nowhere to go, other than to say - I don't believe it.

[No-Bits]

They didn't have so much as a burglar alarm fitted until after the murders. Any kind of state protection would make sure they lived in a secure property (at the least). Someone who was an important Secret Service spy with delicate info would have had a new identity. They wouldn't leave him in the middle of nowhere like a sitting duck. I can't buy into any kind of SB scenario. Although as an argument, it's quite clever because it leads an opposing argument with nowhere to go, other than to say - I don't believe it.

I don't believe it. 

[susan]

Caroline I don't believe it

[Jane]

As discovered by research into this matter by GDS, during the war effort Ralph was in the RAF and was an inportant member of a group of spies who were based in the middle east. What GDS discovered was that Ralph was the only living / surviving member of the group up until the time of his death. All the other members of the spy rung and thier families had all died in mysterious circumstances in different countries. I remember being told about thid from a close friend of GDS at the time who I shall not name. The reason I got told about this was because of a police message passed from the scene for six body bags to be brought to the scene...

If Ralph was a spy who during his working lifehad worked as a key member of a secret service unit out in the middle east, why shouldn't he be afforded the protection of SB when he became an old man who was having his life threatened? Anyway, PS Woodcock worked as part of the Sb team charged with protecting the family - I don'think he was dressed in a dark suit on the night of the shootings...

The timings don't make sense to me. If Neville was 64 when he died, he was born in 1921, meaning he was only 18 at the outbreak of war and making him rather young to have been a spy. He'd only have been  24 when the war ended and would have been VERY lucky to have combined being a pilot with being a spy and not getting killed. I do understand that he was injured, though, which must have restricted his time in the airforce.