When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such

[scipio_usmc]

Thought I´d throw this into the mix, just for the hell of it Here is what the basis of our culture thinks about women giving birth, and the difference in "uncleanness" between giving birth to a boy and a girl (makes me furious on so many levels!)

Sorry, I found this in Danish and put it through Google Translate:

Say to the Israelites: When a woman is pregnant and gives birth to a boy, she is unclean for seven days; she is unclean as long as during her period.
[......] [. . .]
3 Genesis 12.4 In thirty-three days she must stay at home while she blood of her purifying; She must not touch anything sacred, and she can not get into the sanctuary, until her catharsis days are over.
3 Genesis 12.5 If she gives birth to a girl, she is unclean twice seven days and during her period. In sixty-six days she will stay at home because of the blood of her purifying.
3 Genesis 12,6 When her ablutions days are over and after a son by a daughter, she shall bring a yearling lamb for a burnt offering and a young pigeons or turtle dove for a sin offering; she must bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
3 Genesis 12.7, he shall offer it before the LORD and make atonement for her; she is clean after his bleeding.
3 Genesis 12,8 But if she can not afford a lamb, she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement her; she is clean.

After giving birth..... I could vomit literally - and cry! I realize that the Old Testament has a lot of cultural value, but I would like that it would be seperated from our church and only regarded as historical documentation. As is is, this is part of our Christian doctrine.

Christian doctrine parts ways in significant ways including only God being able to sit in judgment. 

People like to think we have souls because the thought of dying and that being the end is quite depressing.  That ultimately might be behind the whole notion of heaven and the afterlife so people better enjoy life while they can. 

[Alias]

Christian doctrine parts ways in significant ways including only God being able to sit in judgment. 

People like to think we have souls because the thought of dying and that being the end is quite depressing.  That ultimately might be behind the whole notion of heaven and the afterlife so people better enjoy life while they can.

I agree with that.
I happen to be very anti church, but I am not anti the teachings of Jesus. Guess that makes me some sort of a Christian, but I don´t believe all from the New Testament - only the parts about trying to be forgiving and loving.
HAHAHA, hard to tell sometimes!!! At least I know I should try...

[maggie]

I agree with that.
I happen to be very anti church, but I am not anti the teachings of Jesus. Guess that makes me some sort of a Christian, but I don´t believe all from the New Testament - only the parts about trying to be forgiving and loving.
HAHAHA, hard to tell sometimes!!! At least I know I should try...

I agree Alias, the teachings of Jesus and the man made power of the church are completely opposite. The church is about power and control whereas Jesus Christ spoke of love and forgiveness. I know which I prefer.

[Alias]

I agree Alias, the teachings of Jesus and the man made power of the church are completely opposite. The church is about power and control whereas Jesus Christ spoke of love and forgiveness. I know which I prefer.

  Good night on that note.

[maggie]

Christian doctrine parts ways in significant ways including only God being able to sit in judgment. 

People like to think we have souls because the thought of dying and that being the end is quite depressing.  That ultimately might be behind the whole notion of heaven and the afterlife so people better enjoy life while they can.

It very well  may be Scipio, but even some scientists now believe life continues after death of the body. Quantum physics opens up a whole new world ....    Literally 

[Alias]

Back to the buckets. 
If Sheila had had her menstrual accident during the day or early evening, would she really have put her blood-soaked undies in buckets in THE KITCHEN? Where people moved around and they could be knocked over - where people ate? A kitchen is a kitchen, a scullery a scullery, a laundry room a laundry room. All of those kinds of rooms were at the WHF, why the kitchen? Would June have allowed that?

What was Sheila wearing after the "accident" if it happened during the day?

[lookout]

Back to the buckets. 
If Sheila had had her menstrual accident during the day or early evening, would she really have put her blood-soaked undies in buckets in THE KITCHEN? Where people moved around and they could be knocked over - where people ate? A kitchen is a kitchen, a scullery a scullery, a laundry room a laundry room. All of those kinds of rooms were at the WHF, why the kitchen? Would June have allowed that?

What was Sheila wearing after the "accident" if it happened during the day?

I'm afraid poor June wouldn't have been aware of " buckets of blood " at that stage.

[susan]

Alias do we know for certain what clothes were soaking in the buckets are we assuming or do we have evidence to support this.

[grahameb]

Alias do we know for certain what clothes were soaking in the buckets are we assuming or do we have evidence to support this.

Well unfortunately we only have Ann Eaton's word for it as to what the contents of the bucket were and possibly not all the clothes were soaking because of menstral blood? Perhaps the bucket of clothes had nothing whatever to do with the case? Thing is nobody knows?

[susan]

Grahame this is the sad thing about this case what is the truth I know some know what the truth is but are not active forum members.  I remember Harters posted sometime ago it was his opinion  children's clothes were soaking not sure if he meant in one  bucket or two clothes are only left to soak if they are badly stained now we buy stain remover.

[scipio_usmc]

Back to the buckets. 
If Sheila had had her menstrual accident during the day or early evening, would she really have put her blood-soaked undies in buckets in THE KITCHEN? Where people moved around and they could be knocked over - where people ate? A kitchen is a kitchen, a scullery a scullery, a laundry room a laundry room. All of those kinds of rooms were at the WHF, why the kitchen? Would June have allowed that?

What was Sheila wearing after the "accident" if it happened during the day?

1) We don't know the buckets were not moved to the kitchen by someone as the house was being cleaned up. We only know they were in the kitchen when Ann looked through them.   

2) We don't know what their habits were.  My mother used to soak our stained clothes in buckets in the kitchen because she would fill and empty the buckets in the sink before taking the clothes to the washing machine.  She had no sink in the laundry room. If they were in the way when she was cooking she would move them somewhere else like the pantry. 

We especially don't know what Sheila's habits were and not to knock the dead but WHF wasn't exactly the most cleanly place.  There were all sorts of clothes all over the stairs and for all we know the buckets had been in there but were moved either to go up those stairs. police searching the house or someone who was cleaning out the house later on.  It is hard to know whether june woudl have had an issue with the buckets soaking overnight in the kitchen or not.  The people who would know best were dead and farm workers who might have a clue were never asked to our knowledge.

Since there were no tops that could have had GSR/blood spatter from the victims no one really cared about the buckets and only Ann bothered to mention them because she rattled on and on about pretty much everything.  I don't think it is going out on a limb to assume she was a gossiper.

I don't have a sink in my laundrey room either.  My wife soaks clothing for a little while in the kitchen sink sometimes but usually in the bathroom.  She will have panties hanging around the tub and buckets with other things soaking and it is always a pain to take a shower because I have to move things. OK correction her clothes soak in the master bathroom. Other clothes that end up stained are soaked downstairs in the kitchen or if soaking long term than outside. She also will put clothes on the deck to dry either over the railing or on the floor even.  We have a large clothesline she made me install (the kind with a post) but she rarely uses it. I stopped trying to figure out women and their laundry habits.





 

[susan]

Alias think Sheila's accident started late on in the day hence the tampon  carton found in the lounge think June and Ralph had retired June would I suspect never have allowed buckets with Sheila's stained underwear  in the kitchen but hey I am assuming she may have done none of us really knew June did we.

[scipio_usmc]

Well unfortunately we only have Ann Eaton's word for it as to what the contents of the bucket were and possibly not all the clothes were soaking because of menstral blood? Perhaps the bucket of cloaths had nothing whatever to do with the case? Thing is nobody knows?

The police believed Sheila did it and looked around for evidence of it.  If there was a top with what could have been blood on it soaking then they would have taken it for testing to try to explain away the lack of spatter on her dress.  Police left such behind because it was something not deemed relevant.  They were so irrelevant no one else even bothered to mention them

Ann was put off that police made her take care of them and had to mention how she was forced to ring them out despite not wanting anything to do with them. She loved to mention all indignities like when police asked her if she had ever had an affair with Jeremy.

Since only Ann bothered to discuss them we have no idea if the buckets had always been in the location she found them or not.  They could have been brought from another room and dumped there hoping someone else would empty them.

Since someone who just murdered everyone and was planning to shortly commit suicide would not be worried about getting stains out of panties and trying to save them we can safely assume the police were correct that they were of no value to the case. 
 

[Alias]

1) We don't know the buckets were not moved to the kitchen by someone as the house was being cleaned up. We only know they were in the kitchen when Ann looked through them.   

2) We don't know what their habits were.  My mother used to soak our stained clothes in buckets in the kitchen because she would fill and empty the buckets in the sink before taking the clothes to the washing machine.  She had no sink in the laundry room. If they were in the way when she was cooking she would move them somewhere else like the pantry. 

We especially don't know what Sheila's habits were and not to knock the dead but WHF wasn't exactly the most cleanly place.  There were all sorts of clothes all over the stairs and for all we know the buckets had been in there but were moved either to go up those stairs. police searching the house or someone who was cleaning out the house later on.  It is hard to know whether june woudl have had an issue with the buckets soaking overnight in the kitchen or not.  The people who would know best were dead and farm workers who might have a clue were never asked to our knowledge.

Since there were no tops that could have had GSR/blood spatter from the victims no one really cared about the buckets and only Ann bothered to mention them because she rattled on and on about pretty much everything.  I don't think it is going out on a limb to assume she was a gossiper.

I don't have a sink in my laundrey room either.  My wife soaks clothing for a little while in the kitchen sink sometimes but usually in the bathroom.  She will have panties hanging around the tub and buckets with other things soaking and it is always a pain to take a shower because I have to move things. OK correction her clothes soak in the master bathroom. Other clothes that end up stained are soaked downstairs in the kitchen or if soaking long term than outside. She also will put clothes on the deck to dry either over the railing or on the floor even.  We have a large clothesline she made me install (the kind with a post) but she rarely uses it. I stopped trying to figure out women and their laundry habits.

In spite of all differences, I appreciate this answer. Nice post! Nothing is FACT here though. Nothing can be, since the police work was so sloppy (as it so often is)

None of us know what items of clothing were in those two buckets, or what kind of blood, the police did not gather them, Ann Eaton did, and we have to take her word. Also that it was menstrual blood, because "it smells differently"
Now, THAT is what I call science!

[scipio_usmc]

In spite of all differences, I appreciate this answer. Nice post! Nothing is FACT here though. Nothing can be, since the police work was so sloppy (as it so often is)

None of us know what items of clothing were in those two buckets, or what kind of blood, the police did not gather them, Ann Eaton did, and we have to take her word. Also that it was menstrual blood, because "it smells differently"
Now, THAT is what I call science!

The garments, location of the stains and size of the stains are what says it was menstrual.  Stains on bottoms of female clothes in crotch areas without anyone haveing been wounded in a crotch area prior to the murders or during are what leads to the conclusion it was menstrual.

As a practical matter menstrual blood has a lot of mucus, whether that effects the smell I don't know. It also contains vaginal and uterine epithelial cells.  Since some women stink down there and some don't maybe some menstrual blood smells and some doesn't.  That would be pretty funny if she is right considering how much people mocked the smell thing but the location of the blood and amount is sufficient for me to make an assessment so there is no need for me to bother to consult a gynecologist about the smell thing.