When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such

[lebaleb]

It doesn't matter what gender you are, deciding not to use a tampon because she might run out of them the following day at some point so instead to sleep in 2 pairs of underwear and track bottoms makes no sense at all.  You use the tampon and tell your family you need them to take you to buy more or go buy more for you.

Thinking the tampon will not be enough and that you need 2 pairs of panties and track bottoms as well to catch the blood doesn't make too much sense either but worse there is no evidence to support that unlikely belief was helpd by Sheila and that she went to bed in such.

What are the chances of so much blood making it through the tampon and then through 2 pairs of panties to heavily stain the crotch of the track bottoms?

Why would someone who decided she was going to kill herself and had just killed her family decide to soak the panties and track bottoms before killing herself? 

That would be no more sensible than me deciding I was going to kill myself but before I do so tossing the clothes in my hamper in the washing machine.  I can't use my clothes dead so what do I care if my clothes are in the hamper dirty or found in he washing machine instead? 

This has to do with common sense and logic not gender.   

If Scipio had spent any time with people having psychotic episodes [as I have], he would understand that 'common sense and logic' is not something that applies to their behavior.

[lookout]

Agreed,Lebaleb. There's no reasoning with them whatsoever. I was with one such person a couple of weeks ago, so very sad yet I couldn't/wouldn't allow myself to have her committed.

I'm afraid Scipio has NO idea of the illness and reading up about it doesn't help because each individual acts out their psychosis in different ways.

Sheilas' problem was borne out of years of emotional and mental abuse meted out by her mother.

[scipio_usmc]

Gracious Heavens, it seems that even that previously sacrosanct bastion of femininity, the menstrual cycle, isn't free of Scipio knows better!!!!  If ONLY all life conformed to where you would have it be.

I rather imagine that if Sheila HAD had a conversation with June regarding this natural female function, it MAY have been the first one ever. I'm going to jump in here with one of the assumptions you so frequently jump to, but consider, in this case, I'm more qualified than you, to make. I don't imagine that the subject had EVER been touched upon between them. I think June had probably picked up from her own mother that menstruation was God's way of ridding women of their uncleanness -recall how Eve was condemned by God for Adam's fall from grace- which would sit very well with June calling Sheila a child of the Devil. I'm convinced Sheila would have been in no hurry to remind her mother that she was right because here was the proof. I think Sheila would have resorted to every trick in the book to have prevented her mother from knowing she was menstruating, including protecting herself from an overnight onset -and soiling her mother's bed linen-  by wearing knickers RATHER than using the few tampons she had with her.

Do I see a sneer of disbelief? These things don't happen in the modern world. Oh really? Welcome to the secret world of female superstition. My Muslim friend was married against her will after both her parents, university lectures, died very young. During menstruation, because she was considered to be unclean, she was forced to live in a shed in the garden of a LONDON!!! house. Her food was pushed through a hatch in the door to avoid touching her. My mother forbade me to bathe or wash my hair. My school matron was of the same opinion  -I can only assume they believed our foulness would contaminate the water supply- our protection had to be wrapped in newspaper and disposed of overnight.

I would hope this attitude has changed, but I suspect that like female circumcision/MUTILATION, because it's done in secret, it hasn't. You seem to think you know as much about the subject as do those of us who experience it first hand. Undoubtedly, you've read books and spoken with female friends but until/UNLESS you get into the psychology which underlies it and has been in existence long before books on the subject were written, you won't begin to understand it.

1) You are the one making assumptions and they are extremely improvident.  You assume that June was so much of a religious nut that she would have seen menstruating as wrong.  You have nothing at all to base such on.  Menstruating women being unclean is not part of Christian doctrine.  Some sects that make up their own ultra insane doctrines assert such perhaps but not any mainstream sects.  Not even Jeremy painted June as that crazy and he was the one who insisted she was ultra religious.  The extended family and various friends denied she was a zealot they considered Jeremy to be lying and that is one of the many lies he told that made them suspicious.

2) Puttiing bloody clothing in a bucket in the kitchen to hide from June that Sheila was menstruating sounds logical to whom?

3) Leaving tampon wrapper sin the den to hide form June that Sheila was menstruating sounds logical to whom?

The fact of the matter is that you are making wild assumptions that a man has to call you out on because they are absurd for anyone to be making but especially a woman.

The 2 most common reasons for menstrual stained panties are: because the woman was unprepared for her period so didn't prepare by wearing maxis/tampons or was out of tampons/maxis so had no choice but to go without until buying more.

The notion of a woman deciding to save them instead of using them so to ruin clothes makes no sense at all.  But worse yet you suggest perhaps she refused to use the tampon until after she decided to kill herself.  She refused to use it but then stuck underwear in a bucket to soak though she was going to kill herself so would not need them anymore and inserted a tampon then killed herself. 

Your suggestions would be akin to me having 5-10 tissues left and deciding that I will wipe my snot on my shirt and save the tissues because maybe I will need the tissues even more in the future before I get a chance to go buy more.  So instead of using them all up before wreching any shirts I will ruin a shirt right away.  It doesn't matter what gender you are such suggestions are stupid.

Your female clit mutilation claims have no bearing at all on the matter and show the extent to which you are grasping at straws to try to salvage your claim that a man can't be debating this topic but quite the contrary is the case. Indeed it is men who are most grossed out by menstruation and the source of things like genital mutilation and looking down on women because they menstruate.  Women don't like menstratuion because it is a pain in the ass to endure not because of some religious notion.

[lookout]

Sheila had some sort of injury to her stomach/abdomen which was covered by a dressing. Was this caused by a pellet from a shotgun ?? As it's something else which was mentioned as well as her having the two gunshot wounds.
 Was this done on a prior occasion like the marks on Neville and Junes' black eye ?

[Jane]

1) You are the one making assumptions and they are extremely improvident.  You assume that June was so much of a religious nut that she would have seen menstruating as wrong.  You have nothing at all to base such on.  Menstruating women being unclean is not part of Christian doctrine.  Some sects that make up their own ultra insane doctrines assert such perhaps but not any mainstream sects.  Not even Jeremy painted June as that crazy and he was the one who insisted she was ultra religious.  The extended family and various friends denied she was a zealot they considered Jeremy to be lying and that is one of the many lies he told that made them suspicious.

2) Puttiing bloody clothing in a bucket in the kitchen to hide from June that Sheila was menstruating sounds logical to whom?

3) Leaving tampon wrapper sin the den to hide form June that Sheila was menstruating sounds logical to whom?

The fact of the matter is that you are making wild assumptions that a man has to call you out on because they are absurd for anyone to be making but especially a woman.

The 2 most common reasons for menstrual stained panties are: because the woman was unprepared for her period so didn't prepare by wearing maxis/tampons or was out of tampons/maxis so had no choice but to go without until buying more.

The notion of a woman deciding to save them instead of using them so to ruin clothes makes no sense at all.  But worse yet you suggest perhaps she refused to use the tampon until after she decided to kill herself.  She refused to use it but then stuck underwear in a bucket to soak though she was going to kill herself so would not need them anymore and inserted a tampon then killed herself. 

Your suggestions would be akin to me having 5-10 tissues left and deciding that I will wipe my snot on my shirt and save the tissues because maybe I will need the tissues even more in the future before I get a chance to go buy more.  So instead of using them all up before wreching any shirts I will ruin a shirt right away.  It doesn't matter what gender you are such suggestions are stupid.

Your female clit mutilation claims have no bearing at all on the matter and show the extent to which you are grasping at straws to try to salvage your claim that a man can't be debating this topic but quite the contrary is the case. Indeed it is men who are most grossed out by menstruation and the source of things like genital mutilation and looking down on women because they menstruate.  Women don't like menstratuion because it is a pain in the ass to endure not because of some religious notion.

NO, Scipio, I'm not making as many assumptions as are you. Much of my information about June comes from those of my friends who were friends of hers.

I'm not going to carry on this conversation any longer. There is no point. You seem -deliberately?- to have twisted what I've said in order to put across the points you wish to make in order to be seen as being right, although you'll undoubtedly deny it. As you said in your introduction, you like to argue and this seems to be your raison d'etre, and an argument, for you, appears to be no more than point scoring, it has little to do with conversation or debate because you appear totally disinterested in the other person or where they're coming from.

 My claim certainly ISN'T that men can't debate this topic, but I experience you as not knowing how because you seem to be insisting that you have more knowledge of it than I.

[scipio_usmc]

NO, Scipio, I'm not making as many assumptions as are you. Much of my information about June comes from those of my friends who were friends of hers.

Quite the contrary, you are making absurd baseless assumptions hence running from this debate.

None of her friends or family provide ANY basis at all for you to suggest she would have looked down on Sheila for having her period and for Sheila to need to conceal it.

Provide such evidence.  You can't hence why you say you are not going to continue this debate.

Worse though, the very thing you point to would not have hid anything from June.  Buckets of menstrual stained clothes in her kitchen would highlight to her that SHeila wa shaving her period as would the packaging left in the living room. 

I'm not going to carry on this conversation any longer. There is no point. You seem -deliberately?- to have twisted what I've said in order to put across the points you wish to make in order to be seen as being right, although you'll undoubtedly deny it. As you said in your introduction, you like to argue and this seems to be your raison d'etre, and an argument, for you, appears to be no more than point scoring, it has little to do with conversation or debate because you appear totally disinterested in the other person or where they're coming from.

 My claim certainly ISN'T that men can't debate this topic, but I experience you as not knowing how because you seem to be insisting that you have more knowledge of it than I.

I'm not twisting anything. 

I have logic and facts supporting the arguments that I made.

This issue has always been a nonstarter.  The police considered menstraul stained clothing to be completely unrelated to the murder and to have been soaking from before the murders, the prosecution thinks the same thing and even the defense found no evidence to establish otherwise.   The most common claim is to try to suggest that water with diluted blood could have been used to plant blood in the moderator but water with diuted blood would not be able to account for the deposits in the moderator which is why the defense lawyers made no attempt to ever suggest such.

   

[Jane]

Quite the contrary, you are making absurd baseless assumptions hence running from this debate.

None of her friends or family provide ANY basis at all for you to suggest she would have looked down on Sheila for having her period and for Sheila to need to conceal it.

Provide such evidence.  You can't hence why you say you are not going to continue this debate.

Worse though, the very thing you point to would not have hid anything from June.  Buckets of menstrual stained clothes in her kitchen would highlight to her that SHeila wa shaving her period as would the packagin

g left in the living room. 

I'm not twisting anything. 

I have logic and facts supporting the arguments that I made.

This issue has always been a nonstarter.  The police considered menstraul stained clothing to be completely unrelated to the murder and to have been soaking from before the murders, the prosecution thinks the same thing and even the defense found no evidence to establish otherwise.   The most common claim is to try to suggest that water with diluted blood could have been used to plant blood in the moderator but water with diuted blood would not be able to account for the deposits in the moderator which is why the defense lawyers made no attempt to ever suggest such.

 

Well now, if you're telling me I DON'T know any friends of June's you must be saying that I'm a liar.

Provide evidence!!! What, provide names!!! You're not it court, you're just another forum member with an opinion.

I don't recall saying OR implying June "looked down" on Sheila because she was menstruating. YOUR words.

I suppose it didn't cross your mind that June may have been in bed.

WHEN did I ever state that soiled garments WERE case related? In fact I've said TWICE that in the grand scheme of things, they mean little -you seem to have missed that- my entire interest has been the dynamic between June and Sheila -NOT in the immediacy of those last days- but the entrenched from the beginning. You chose to move my goal posts.

[scipio_usmc]

NO, Scipio, I'm not making as many assumptions as are you. Much of my information about June comes from those of my friends who were friends of hers.

My supposed assumptions are founded on actual evidence in the case.  Yours is based on nothing and is absurd and goes well beyond simply looking at the facts and evidence.

Which alleged friends provide a basis for the following belief and precisely what do they say about June that provides the basis:

"I'm going to jump in here with one of the assumptions you so frequently jump to, but consider, in this case, I'm more qualified than you, to make. I don't imagine that the subject had EVER been touched upon between them. I think June had probably picked up from her own mother that menstruation was God's way of ridding women of their uncleanness -recall how Eve was condemned by God for Adam's fall from grace- which would sit very well with June calling Sheila a child of the Devil. I'm convinced Sheila would have been in no hurry to remind her mother that she was right because here was the proof. I think Sheila would have resorted to every trick in the book to have prevented her mother from knowing she was menstruating, including protecting herself from an overnight onset -and soiling her mother's bed linen-  by wearing knickers RATHER than using the few tampons she had with her."

I don't see any comments form friends reuslting in this babble but rather a combination of you not knowing crap about religion combining with you not knowing crap about June and simply your bias resulting in your making absurd assumptions that you should be embarrassed for making and which instead of showing me up make you look foolish.

I'm not going to carry on this conversation any longer. There is no point. You seem -deliberately?- to have twisted what I've said in order to put across the points you wish to make in order to be seen as being right, although you'll undoubtedly deny it. As you said in your introduction, you like to argue and this seems to be your raison d'etre, and an argument, for you, appears to be no more than point scoring, it has little to do with conversation or debate because you appear totally disinterested in the other person or where they're coming from.

 My claim certainly ISN'T that men can't debate this topic, but I experience you as not knowing how because you seem to be insisting that you have more knowledge of it than I.

I am right I don't just appear to be right.  I didn't start this thread you did and it blew up in your face.

[Jane]

NO, Scipio, I'm not making as many assumptions as are you. Much of my information about June comes from those of my friends who were friends of hers.

I'm not going to carry on this conversation any longer. There is no point. You seem -deliberately?- to have twisted what I've said in order to put across the points you wish to make in order to be seen as being right, although you'll undoubtedly deny it. As you said in your introduction, you like to argue and this seems to be your raison d'etre, and an argument, for you, appears to be no more than point scoring, it has little to do with conversation or debate because you appear totally disinterested in the other person or where they're coming from.

 My claim certainly ISN'T that men can't debate this topic, but I experience you as not knowing how because you seem to be insisting that you have more knowledge of it than I.

[grahameb]

I misread the title. I thought you wrote, "When Does A President Become Accepted As Such"? I was going to say, "When he's sworn in".

[scipio_usmc]

I misread the title. I thought you wrote, "When Does A President Become Accepted As Such"? I was going to say, "When he's sworn in".

Some presidents are just tolerated because we have to and never accepted.

[Jan]

Some presidents are just tolerated because we have to and never accepted.

It helps if you use punctuation.

[Alias]

  scipio telling us about what it is like and what you typically do when you have your period! Oh well, perhaps we don´t know all about him/her, and he really is a woman or maybe even a hermaphrodite.

About this subject, I have some questions and thoughts: I always found it strange that Sheila was not wearing panties, but only a tampon. I can say that for me that would be very uncomfortable and "unsafe", especially during menstruation - the panties CAN stop the flow that the tampon does not catch, and you hurry to change the tampon AND the panties if you bleed through. Two panties and leggings would protect additionally - truth.
Could this heavy bleeding explain why she slept on top of the covers to protect as much bed-linnen as possible? It is NOT a nice thought to soil other people´s bed linnen with menstrual blood!
Did she only bring two pairs of panties? She must have expected her period since she had tampons with her - or could she have bought them while at WHF?
Still, two pairs of panties is not much to bring with you, period or not. Why didn´t she borrow panties from June?
Did she have this accident in the middle of the night and had to get up?
If she was only wearing one pair at a time, why would there be two pairs of panties soaking?  Why wouldn´t she wash the other pair of panties so it would dry, so that she could wear panties again? 

Very sloppy policework to just leave a couple of buckets with bloodied water where very bloody murders have taken place.
I know that scipio says it doesn´t matter; he is welcome to have that view, I happen NOT to share it!

[lookout]

 Why would the tampons have been on display ? Was it an act of defiance on Sheilas' part, towards her mother who'd gone through all that rigmarole to no avail ?
June was pretty much " anti-sex " anyway,,so seeing those things lying around would have given her the vapours.
I can well imagine that Sheila would have been tormenting her mother over things like this. You've only to read at what Sheila said of the twins to realise how sick Sheilas' mind was.

[Jane]

scipio telling us about what it is like and what you typically do when you have your period! Oh well, perhaps we don´t know all about him/her, and he really is a woman or maybe even a hermaphrodite.

About this subject, I have some questions and thoughts: I always found it strange that Sheila was not wearing panties, but only a tampon. I can say that for me that would be very uncomfortable and "unsafe", especially during menstruation - the panties CAN stop the flow that the tampon does not catch, and you hurry to change the tampon AND the panties if you bleed through. Two panties and leggings would protect additionally - truth.
Could this heavy bleeding explain why she slept on top of the covers to protect as much bed-linnen as possible? It is NOT a nice thought to soil other people´s bed linnen with menstrual blood!
Did she only bring two pairs of panties? She must have expected her period since she had tampons with her - or could she have bought them while at WHF?
Still, two pairs of panties is not much to bring with you, period or not. Why didn´t she borrow panties from June?
Did she have this accident in the middle of the night and had to get up?
If she was only wearing one pair at a time, why would there be two pairs of panties soaking?  Why wouldn´t she wash the other pair of panties so it would dry, so that she could wear panties again? 

Very sloppy policework to just leave a couple of buckets with bloodied water where very bloody murders have taken place.
I know that scipio says it doesn´t matter; he is welcome to have that view, I happen NOT to share it!

Alias, thank GOD!!! YOU obviously know what I was talking about. It was entirely lost on Scipio, who although he did his best to b luster his way through it, what the HELL does he know about it? I think the answer in American is SQUAT!!!!!

She was very likely to have had a heavy bleed because she was fitted with a IUD, renowned for causing this problem. It makes sense that she would have pre-empted the onset by wearing panties to go to bed -I suspect the demure nightdress was probably June's- and a nightdress would hav e given extra protection. It's bad ENOUGH to experience such an accident in one's own bed. FAR worse when one is not at home and has to get up and not only clean oneself but strip the bed and soak the sheets.

We have no idea of the overall state of her wardrobe. She seemed to have to rely on  her parents for every PENNY -as Colin had the main custody of the boys, I guess he'd have drawn the allowance- so it may very well be that she was down to her last couple of pairs of panties.

As for the two soaking pairs, the first pair could have been protection and the second pair the result of leaking.