Author Topic: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such  (Read 7371 times)

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Offline Jane

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When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« on: July 11, 2014, 02:48:PM »
It seems to me that much of what Scipio denies about this case is based on there being no precedent. Whilst some of this MAY be so, it's my belief that some isn't. ie, it appears that because he doesn't believe that a woman may choose to wear two pairs of knickers, during OR pre-empting menstruation, for added protection, meaning that the two soaking pairs were from two separate occasions. I'm perfectly certain that in the grand scheme of things, this small fact -women NEVER wear two pairs of knickers- hardly matters BUT, as he backs up SO much of what he says by saying that there's no precedent for anything WE may say, it causes me to wonder at what point something IS accepted as being a precedent.

 EVERYTHING has a starting point so EVERY situation has to, at some time, have been a first. My next question has to address the time taken before allowing that, at a specific point, a precedent WAS set and how many innocent people spend time -maybe YEARS- in prisons because of it.

Offline Jan

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 05:21:PM »
It seems to me that much of what Scipio denies about this case is based on there being no precedent. Whilst some of this MAY be so, it's my belief that some isn't. ie, it appears that because he doesn't believe that a woman may choose to wear two pairs of knickers, during OR pre-empting menstruation, for added protection, meaning that the two soaking pairs were from two separate occasions. I'm perfectly certain that in the grand scheme of things, this small fact -women NEVER wear two pairs of knickers- hardly matters BUT, as he backs up SO much of what he says by saying that there's no precedent for anything WE may say, it causes me to wonder at what point something IS accepted as being a precedent.

 EVERYTHING has a starting point so EVERY situation has to, at some time, have been a first. My next question has to address the time taken before allowing that, at a specific point, a precedent WAS set and how many innocent people spend time -maybe YEARS- in prisons because of it.


that is very true. There may not have been a case like this before it could be unique , but from an innocent or guilty stance it could be a first.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 08:05:PM »
It seems to me that much of what Scipio denies about this case is based on there being no precedent.

Precedent is mainly a legal term of art.  It means in essence that in the future law is to be applied to a like set of facts in the same manner as in the instance decision.  Prcedent is rarely used outside the legal context and when it is it still is means to set an example that is copied and repeated in the future.  Precedent is not a good word to use for the matter at hand. 


Whilst some of this MAY be so, it's my belief that some isn't. ie, it appears that because he doesn't believe that a woman may choose to wear two pairs of knickers, during OR pre-empting menstruation, for added protection, meaning that the two soaking pairs were from two separate occasions. I'm perfectly certain that in the grand scheme of things, this small fact -women NEVER wear two pairs of knickers- hardly matters BUT, as he backs up SO much of what he says by saying that there's no precedent for anything WE may say, it causes me to wonder at what point something IS accepted as being a precedent.

EVERYTHING has a starting point so EVERY situation has to, at some time, have been a first. My next question has to address the time taken before allowing that, at a specific point, a precedent WAS set and how many innocent people spend time -maybe YEARS- in prisons because of it.

People can rebutt the norm with evidence to establish something different happened.

Wearing 2 pairs of panties for exrta absorbancy makes no sense though. The whole reaosn maxipads and tampons exist is to protect clothing from being ruined.  Why would a woman opt to use 2 pairs of panties which woudl result in ruining 2 pairs of panties instead of a maxipad or tampon which would not only save the panties but is more absorbant than 2 pairs of panties anyway?  How many women would decide to do that?  Do you know any who would? 

When might a woman do that?  When they have no maxipads or tampons and need to go to the store to buy some?  And in that case which panties would they use?  Ones they could throw away most likely.  Who would use good ones that you intended to then clean?

So already the notion she worse 2 panties to soak up blood that intended to wash later is not likely.  What eveidence is there to establish this unlikely thing happened as opposed to her wearing the 2 panties as separate times.  None.  Woudl it matter if the did wear 2 at onece?  Not really.

All the clothing proves is that Sheila menstruated in her panties and that it leaked into her leggings as well. Could this have happened prior to the murders?  Yes.  Is it highly likely that it happened prior to the murders? Yes.  Is there any evidence to suggest it happened during or after the murders?  No.

Are these clothes relevant to the murders?  No.

Jeremy defenders want to pretend that this clothing proves that Sheila washed and changed after murdering everyone and that is why she had no physical evidence on her body or clothing.

All it demontrates is that she menstruated in her panties and leggings while she was wearing them.  Is there any evidence she was wearing the leggings and panties at the time of the murders?  No.  She had a tampon inserted when killed.  It makes no sense at all to ruin underwear, then bother to place them in a bucket to soak and insert a tampon right before killing herself.  Who bothers to wash clothing knowing you are dying and won't need them anymore?  Who inserts a tampon right before blowing their brains out to prevent menstrual blood from getting on their nightgown and the floor?

Is it likely she would be wearing panties and leggings at the time of the murders?  No

After speaking to Pam she went to bed.  There is no indication she would sleep in panties and leggings at all let alone when menstrauting.  She had tampons at her disposal and one was in her when she was killed.  Why would she go to bed in extra pairs of panties and leggings instead of using the tampon and nightgown?

If she did go to bed in leggings and panties she still needed to wear either a gown to cover her top or at minimum a shirt.  If she committed the murders then she either had to do it topless or nude in order to avoid getting GSR and blood spatter on a shirt or gown.  No shirt or gown she could have been wearing during the murders was found with blood or GSR on it.  Nor did the leggings or panties have any reported blood spatter only stains in the crotch areas. So there is no evidence that she committed the murders and then changed out of clothing containing spatter from the victims or GSR.

That is the issue.  Jeremy supporters suggest she changed and washed but have put forth: 1) no reason why she would do so.  A) The claim that ritualistic killers sometimes do ritualistic things like bathe doesn't have any relation to allegations of a crazy person going wild it applies only to ritualistic killings. B) the only other reaosn peopel wash up and change and dispose of blood clothing used in a crime is to avoid liability but someone who murders with the intention of committing suicide doesn't bother   
2) no evidence that she changed her clothing. There was no clothing found anywhewre other than on her body that she would likely have been wearing during the murders let alone any that was found containing blood spatter or GSR.

The law is concerned with what makes sense and can be proven.

Jeremy defenders constantly make claims that make no sense and that they can't prove.  They constantly ignore that once someone is convicted the burden is to disprove the evidence used in order to establish a wrongful conviction.  Disproving it requires solid proof not half baked scenarios one simply thought up on the fly but had no evidence to establish occurred.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 09:12:PM »
No this is left to the guilters who now can bring up half baked scenarios til their hearts content. ;)

1) You are betraying yourself again Grahame.  I don't know why you insist on lying and pretending you are objective and not a Jeremy supporter despite constantly revleaing you are one of the most staunch on this site.  That kind of dishonesty is easy to see through so instea dof folling anyone just reveals you do be dishonest.  My advice is to give up the charade and just admit what everyone knows. 

2) the half baked unsupported claims are coming mainly from the Pro-Jeremy camp.  Trying to use the knickers ad panties to pretend Sheila changed after the murders is a perfect example but I can provide many others.

Considering this is a site full of people supportive of Jeremy for many years I expected such supporters woudl be able to clearly define their case and evidence to support their claims but on the contrary what I have discovered is that most Jeremy supports simply decide to believe he is innocent for absurd reasons and not because of evidence and thus are unable to do so and anything they come up with is pretty much ad hoc and changes with the wind.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jane

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2014, 09:15:PM »
Precedent is mainly a legal term of art.  It means in essence that in the future law is to be applied to a like set of facts in the same manner as in the instance decision.  Prcedent is rarely used outside the legal context and when it is it still is means to set an example that is copied and repeated in the future.  Precedent is not a good word to use for the matter at hand. 


People can rebutt the norm with evidence to establish something different happened.

Wearing 2 pairs of panties for exrta absorbancy makes no sense though. The whole reaosn maxipads and tampons exist is to protect clothing from being ruined.  Why would a woman opt to use 2 pairs of panties which woudl result in ruining 2 pairs of panties instead of a maxipad or tampon which would not only save the panties but is more absorbant than 2 pairs of panties anyway?  How many women would decide to do that?  Do you know any who would? 

When might a woman do that?  When they have no maxipads or tampons and need to go to the store to buy some?  And in that case which panties would they use?  Ones they could throw away most likely.  Who would use good ones that you intended to then clean?

So already the notion she worse 2 panties to soak up blood that intended to wash later is not likely.  What eveidence is there to establish this unlikely thing happened as opposed to her wearing the 2 panties as separate times.  None.  Woudl it matter if the did wear 2 at onece?  Not really.

All the clothing proves is that Sheila menstruated in her panties and that it leaked into her leggings as well. Could this have happened prior to the murders?  Yes.  Is it highly likely that it happened prior to the murders? Yes.  Is there any evidence to suggest it happened during or after the murders?  No.

Are these clothes relevant to the murders?  No.

Jeremy defenders want to pretend that this clothing proves that Sheila washed and changed after murdering everyone and that is why she had no physical evidence on her body or clothing.

All it demontrates is that she menstruated in her panties and leggings while she was wearing them.  Is there any evidence she was wearing the leggings and panties at the time of the murders?  No.  She had a tampon inserted when killed.  It makes no sense at all to ruin underwear, then bother to place them in a bucket to soak and insert a tampon right before killing herself.  Who bothers to wash clothing knowing you are dying and won't need them anymore?  Who inserts a tampon right before blowing their brains out to prevent menstrual blood from getting on their nightgown and the floor?

Is it likely she would be wearing panties and leggings at the time of the murders?  No

After speaking to Pam she went to bed.  There is no indication she would sleep in panties and leggings at all let alone when menstrauting.  She had tampons at her disposal and one was in her when she was killed.  Why would she go to bed in extra pairs of panties and leggings instead of using the tampon and nightgown?

If she did go to bed in leggings and panties she still needed to wear either a gown to cover her top or at minimum a shirt.  If she committed the murders then she either had to do it topless or nude in order to avoid getting GSR and blood spatter on a shirt or gown.  No shirt or gown she could have been wearing during the murders was found with blood or GSR on it.  Nor did the leggings or panties have any reported blood spatter only stains in the crotch areas. So there is no evidence that she committed the murders and then changed out of clothing containing spatter from the victims or GSR.

That is the issue.  Jeremy supporters suggest she changed and washed but have put forth: 1) no reason why she would do so.  A) The claim that ritualistic killers sometimes do ritualistic things like bathe doesn't have any relation to allegations of a crazy person going wild it applies only to ritualistic killings. B) the only other reaosn peopel wash up and change and dispose of blood clothing used in a crime is to avoid liability but someone who murders with the intention of committing suicide doesn't bother   
2) no evidence that she changed her clothing. There was no clothing found anywhewre other than on her body that she would likely have been wearing during the murders let alone any that was found containing blood spatter or GSR.

The law is concerned with what makes sense and can be proven.

Jeremy defenders constantly make claims that make no sense and that they can't prove.  They constantly ignore that once someone is convicted the burden is to disprove the evidence used in order to establish a wrongful conviction.  Disproving it requires solid proof not half baked scenarios one simply thought up on the fly but had no evidence to establish occurred.



D'ya know, your audacity AMAZES me. There YOU are -a male- giving we females a lesson in the art of dealing with the logistics of menstruation based entirely on male assumptions.

It may not have crossed your mind that in order to take advantage of the menstrual aids you mention, one either needs to have them to hand OR go and buy them. Given that Sheila wasn't within walking distance of a shop and couldn't drive, it seems she may have decided to manage with what she had, one box of 10 tampons  -which may, or not have been sufficient, and she decided not to use until it was absolutely necessary-  PLUS possibly, two pairs of knickers over night to prevent an accident occurring in someone else's bed, the logic being that underwear, possibly jogging bottoms and nightdresses are easier to wash than sheets and POSSIBLY, mattresses.

 There's NO reason that she couldn't have used this routine until her period started and being constantly short of money and relying on food parcels from her parents, this routine MAY have been her norm. Remember, too, she probably came to the farm with no money. I don't know how other women feel about it but I would REALLY feel I'd hit rock bottom the day I had to ask my mother for money to buy menstrual aids.

There really was no need to state that "these clothes" aren't relevant to the murders. I had already said that in the grand scheme of things it meant little. MY point was about precedents being set and the fact that a man is telling a woman how women cope with menstruation. Perhaps you have other knowledge, re this strictly female occurrence, that we don't know about.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 09:59:PM »

D'ya know, your audacity AMAZES me. There YOU are -a male- giving we females a lesson in the art of dealing with the logistics of menstruation based entirely on male assumptions.

Given that Sheila wasn't within walking distance of a shop and couldn't drive, it seems she may have decided to manage with what she had, one box of 10 tampons  -which may, or not have been sufficient, and she decided not to use until it was absolutely necessary-  PLUS possibly, two pairs of knickers over night to prevent an accident occurring in someone else's bed, the logic being that underwear, possibly jogging bottoms and nightdresses are easier to wash than sheets and POSSIBLY, mattresses.

It doesn't matter what gender you are, deciding not to use a tampon because she might run out of them the following day at some point so instead to sleep in 2 pairs of underwear and track bottoms makes no sense at all.  You use the tampon and tell your family you need them to take you to buy more or go buy more for you.

Thinking the tampon will not be enough and that you need 2 pairs of panties and track bottoms as well to catch the blood doesn't make too much sense either but worse there is no evidence to support that unlikely belief was helpd by Sheila and that she went to bed in such.

What are the chances of so much blood making it through the tampon and then through 2 pairs of panties to heavily stain the crotch of the track bottoms?

Why would someone who decided she was going to kill herself and had just killed her family decide to soak the panties and track bottoms before killing herself? 

That would be no more sensible than me deciding I was going to kill myself but before I do so tossing the clothes in my hamper in the washing machine.  I can't use my clothes dead so what do I care if my clothes are in the hamper dirty or found in he washing machine instead? 

This has to do with common sense and logic not gender.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 10:32:PM »
I think you better change your name to stupido. I thought you were more intelligent than that. But now I see that you have just revealed your true nature. You're just a wanker aren't you stupido scipio. Go back to killing innocent Iraqis again. ;)

Grahame  - I see your posts are being deleted due to threats of violence/swearing/nastiness. I suggest you log off and just calm down?  :-\ Or I'd guess a ban would come your way.  :-\

guest154

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 10:39:PM »
Couldn't give a monkey's mate. What about his accusations and nastiness?

He isn't threatening to beat you up though.... Don't let your anger make a fool of you, a 5 minute break would calm you down. Just friendly advice.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2014, 11:31:PM »
Or maybe I just don't want to be lumped together with a big headed know-it-all like you. Whose head is so far up his arse he doesn't know how to be civil to people. I'm getting a bit sick of reading your garrulous drivel where half of it is devoted to trying to humiliate people.

I don't humilate people, they do that all by themselves. I just give people enough rope to hang themselves. In the meantime things like your suggestion that I should go off to kill Iraqis can't even be attributed to me providing the rope- you brought your own.

 

 
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Offline Caroline

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2014, 11:32:PM »
Come on people enough is enough - we're not kids! Argue the point or lose the post.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 12:13:AM »
When he accuses me of being a liar Caroline. I've tried to have a civilised conversation with him. But its a bit difficult when dealing with a big head with no common decency in him at all. A bit like putting a prize ruby in the snout of a pig.

Grahame, you KNOW you're not a liar, how can you be a liar? All of us have opinions - they can ONLY be opinions because we weren't there. Things can happen and opinions change. We aren't in a court and some things are just based on gut feelings. If people can't accept that (on both sides) then that's their problem!
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2014, 03:17:AM »
Well I'm ok with the fact that scipio is only a blinkered fool who thinks just because others don't agree with him they must be wrong. I really can't see how he is still alive? I would have thought he'd be poisoned by his own ego by now? What a strange small minded fellow he must be? Very sad.

It struck a cord because you know I am right.  That is why you are lashing out like a child in every thread. 

The reality is that everyone knows you are Jeremy supporter so instead of a wasted denial you might as well just be honest.

You already stated numerous times how your friend who supposedly met Jeremy believes he would not be capable so neigther do you.  That alone is an admission you think he is innocent.  Worse though, you entertain claims from Mike that are complete shams and that most guilters don't even respond to because they know are clear shams. People say you even said that you wished you did it so Jeremy could be free.  When someone who believes Jeremy is guilty questioned why Jeremy did not complain with how long police were taking to enter you tried to draw attention away from Jeremy and did a long song and dance about police procedure and how it was textbook for police to wait for a hostage situation.  Along comes Richardson claiming that the police waiting means they knew shots were fired already and that Jeremy was innocent and framed by them and you praise his post.  You criticize any posts suggesting Jeremy is guilty and praise posts asserting he is innocent.  You routinely mock "guilters" including with the post above while defending claims of his innocence.

Since you keep betraying your position time and time again it is a futile effort to pretend you are not a Jeremy supporter and simply an objective fence sitter. The lip service you give to objectivity doesn't convince those you want to convince of your objectivity so is a wasted effort that just makes you look dishonest. 

If you want people to believe you are objective then you need to demonstrate it not just claim to be it.

Lashing out as you are doing just makes it look even worse for you.  If you want respect you have to earn it and you can't earn respect by immaturely lashing out or by simply claiming to be objective when your posts say otherwise. You earn respect by being consistent and making rational claims that you can support with reason and evidence.

I could just whisper behind your back but I don't do that I tell people to their faces.  While other people might like me more if I were like those who snicker and talk about people behind their backs but to their face put on an act, I would not like myself.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2014, 10:18:AM »
Bravo,Grahame.

Offline Jane

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2014, 11:27:AM »
It doesn't matter what gender you are, deciding not to use a tampon because she might run out of them the following day at some point so instead to sleep in 2 pairs of underwear and track bottoms makes no sense at all.  You use the tampon and tell your family you need them to take you to buy more or go buy more for you.

Thinking the tampon will not be enough and that you need 2 pairs of panties and track bottoms as well to catch the blood doesn't make too much sense either but worse there is no evidence to support that unlikely belief was helpd by Sheila and that she went to bed in such.

What are the chances of so much blood making it through the tampon and then through 2 pairs of panties to heavily stain the crotch of the track bottoms?

Why would someone who decided she was going to kill herself and had just killed her family decide to soak the panties and track bottoms before killing herself? 

That would be no more sensible than me deciding I was going to kill myself but before I do so tossing the clothes in my hamper in the washing machine.  I can't use my clothes dead so what do I care if my clothes are in the hamper dirty or found in he washing machine instead? 

This has to do with common sense and logic not gender.   




Gracious Heavens, it seems that even that previously sacrosanct bastion of femininity, the menstrual cycle, isn't free of Scipio knows better!!!!  If ONLY all life conformed to where you would have it be.

I rather imagine that if Sheila HAD had a conversation with June regarding this natural female function, it MAY have been the first one ever. I'm going to jump in here with one of the assumptions you so frequently jump to, but consider, in this case, I'm more qualified than you, to make. I don't imagine that the subject had EVER been touched upon between them. I think June had probably picked up from her own mother that menstruation was God's way of ridding women of their uncleanness -recall how Eve was condemned by God for Adam's fall from grace- which would sit very well with June calling Sheila a child of the Devil. I'm convinced Sheila would have been in no hurry to remind her mother that she was right because here was the proof. I think Sheila would have resorted to every trick in the book to have prevented her mother from knowing she was menstruating, including protecting herself from an overnight onset -and soiling her mother's bed linen-  by wearing knickers RATHER than using the few tampons she had with her.

Do I see a sneer of disbelief? These things don't happen in the modern world. Oh really? Welcome to the secret world of female superstition. My Muslim friend was married against her will after both her parents, university lectures, died very young. During menstruation, because she was considered to be unclean, she was forced to live in a shed in the garden of a LONDON!!! house. Her food was pushed through a hatch in the door to avoid touching her. My mother forbade me to bathe or wash my hair. My school matron was of the same opinion  -I can only assume they believed our foulness would contaminate the water supply- our protection had to be wrapped in newspaper and disposed of overnight.

I would hope this attitude has changed, but I suspect that like female circumcision/MUTILATION, because it's done in secret, it hasn't. You seem to think you know as much about the subject as do those of us who experience it first hand. Undoubtedly, you've read books and spoken with female friends but until/UNLESS you get into the psychology which underlies it and has been in existence long before books on the subject were written, you won't begin to understand it.

Offline lookout

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Re: When Does A Precedent Become Accepted As Such
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2014, 11:58:AM »
 That is so sad,April. You're right about June too.

 I'm of the belief that whatever Sheila did that night,was in defiance of her mother. The open box of tampons,the soiled underwear,which could well have been there before anyone was killed.