A shooting incident at White House farm

[No-Bits]

Well lets see if he posts first shall we. If I am wrong and have misrepresented his views then he deserves an apology. But if not then that means I'm right and have correctly represented him.

Okay, but if he posts to say that I am wrong, then you deserve an apology, if not, then I have correctly pointed out your misrepresentation, you should be dipped in tar and rolled in feathers as punishment.

The reality is that it's irrelevant, as you have clearly indicated that you agree with the following:

NGB has posted several times that he believes there is a legal challenge to the conviction. He has been very careful to be subjective and never stated that he believes JB to be guilty or innocent, in fact he's actually stated that he does not know and either may be possible.

[grahameb]

Okay, but if he posts to say that I am wrong, then you deserve an apology, if not, then I have correctly pointed out your misrepresentation, you should be dipped in tar and rolled in feathers as punishment.

The reality is that it's irrelevant, as you have clearly indicated that you agree with the following:

Oh no! not the tar. I've had that before and its difficult to get off.

[No-Bits]

Oh no! not the tar. I've had that before and its difficult to get off.

I won't ask why.  :D

[grahameb]

NGB has posted several times that he believes there is a legal challenge to the conviction. He has been very careful to be subjective and never stated that he believes JB to be guilty or innocent, in fact he's actually stated that he does not know and either may be possible.

I just think he was being unconfrontational.

[No-Bits]

I just think he was being unconfrontational.

Oh, so they aren't his views that you share lol.  :D

[scipio_usmc]

Why don't they impress you? Is it because you have no credentials? Why the way 2 bodies were seen through the window before entry.

His credentials don't impress me because as I already pointed out:

1) The credentials of a person making an argument are meaningless.  People with credentials can be biased and in error just as easily as anyone else.  What matters is the evidence that is brought to bear to support the arguments made not the credentials of the person making an assertion.  I gave by way of example how courts don't give a rat's ass who went to what law school or won what cases in the past the weight of their arguments is what matters.

People frequently like to reference a famous hisotrian and say he believes this so this is my evidence it is true.  Just because a historian is famous doesn't make his opinion worth anything.  What matter sis the basis of his opinion in order to assess whether the opinion has any merit and assessing what evidence there is to support it.

People who subsrcibe blindly to authorities are fools or simply biased and lazy and know they cna't find any credible evidence so in lieu of such refence an opinion from someone else as evidence.

2) I provided a specific example where his assessment was wanting and explained in detail what must be proven in this case.

3) As I pointed out I don't even know what NGB's position is with respect to the issue of 2 bodies in the kitchen because I have not seen him say anything about it.  You referenced an overall view he believes there was a MOJ not anything specific to the issue at hand.

[scipio_usmc]

I'm not sure what you mean here? I think that this must represent some poor attempt by yourself to try and belittle me and my views. I know ngb's views concerning the case very well. And my using his opinion to support my argument is not some kind of "worship of him" as you said. But because he is a well respected man and a knowledgeable one. His opinions beinf a criminal barrister carry weight. But of course it is evident from what "scipio the unknown" self appointed oracle of all knowledge does not respect. NGB for your information believes this case to be a miscarriage of justice. He was introduced to this forum and to Bamber by Jackie Preece and the reason he is here is because he believes him to be innocent. That is also the reason Mike made him administrator. Jackie Preece also introduced McKay to Jeremy and he also was convinced that he is innocent and that is the reason he also represents Bamber and not for publicity as one cynic said.

[grahameb]

His credentials don't impress me because as I already pointed out:

1) The credentials of a person making an argument are meaningless.  People with credentials can be biased and in error just as easily as anyone else.  What matters is the evidence that is brought to bear to support the arguments made not the credentials of the person making an assertion.  I gave by way of example how courts don't give a rat's ass who went to what law school or won what cases in the past the weight of their arguments is what matters.

People frequently like to reference a famous hisotrian and say he believes this so this is my evidence it is true.  Just because a historian is famous doesn't make his opinion worth anything.  What matter sis the basis of his opinion in order to assess whether the opinion has any merit and assessing what evidence there is to support it.

People who subsrcibe blindly to authorities are fools or simply biased and lazy and know they cna't find any credible evidence so in lieu of such refence an opinion from someone else as evidence.

2) I provided a specific example where his assessment was wanting and explained in detail what must be proven in this case.

3) As I pointed out I don't even know what NGB's position is with respect to the issue of 2 bodies in the kitchen because I have not seen him say anything about it.  You referenced an overall view he believes there was a MOJ not anything specific to the issue at hand.

Precisely my view. That is why I don't trust Essex Police on this one. I think they re-wrote the case quite frankly? Earlier documents are frequently the more reliable.

[lookout]

Lookout, if you get the chance, there is a BBC film/drama that was on recently called 'Common', it is still available to watch on iplayer. Without spoiling it, it involves a stabbing case in which JE was to be used as a basis for conviction.

It's worth a watch.

I saw that,Harters,and in that case the " by association " was admittedly unfair. As the law stands,Joint Enterprise needs an awful lot of thought and it's definitely down to the brains of the law-enforcers to get it right. I'm for it myself if it's conducted in the right and proper way.

[scipio_usmc]

Precisely my view. That is why I don't trust Essex Police on this one. I think they re-wrote the case quite frankly? Earlier documents are frequently the more reliable.

Documents containing opinion doesn't mean squat. The documents detailing the collection of evidence and processing of the evidence and testimony of all involved matters and such has been released.

Suppose that instead of just turning over the evidence in a case the other side wanted me to turn over my own personal notes where I evaluated the evidence and assessed it. That is privileged attorney work product- the evidence is one thing my opinions on such is something entirely different.

The complaint is that opinion work product is being withheld.  Such assessments have no bearing though, you have the evidence and can make your own assessment there is no need to wonder or care what Jones or anyone else thought of if.

Suppose Jones had written in a document that he believed the supporessor evidence doesn't prove anything. Does that help counter the evidence and is it something the defense can use to overturn the verdict? The kinds of things being kept from prying eyes have no appellate use at all.  At best some could be used as propaganda to say look Jones didn't buy the evidence so you shouldn't eiither because he was a cop and if he doubted it so should you.

So in effect it would amount to holding him out as an authority and saying believe his opinion because he was a great cop.

[Jan]

Documents containing opinion doesn't mean squat. The documents detailing the collection of evidence and processing of the evidence and testimony of all involved matters and such has been released.

Suppose that instead of just turning over the evidence in a case the other side wanted me to turn over my own personal notes where I evaluated the evidence and assessed it. That is privileged attorney work product- the evidence is one thing my opinions on such is something entirely different.

The complaint is that opinion work product is being withheld.  Such assessments have no bearing though, you have the evidence and can make your own assessment there is no need to wonder or care what Jones or anyone else thought of if.

Suppose Jones had written in a document that he believed the supporessor evidence doesn't prove anything. Does that help counter the evidence and is it something the defense can use to overturn the verdict? The kinds of things being kept from prying eyes have no appellate use at all.  At best some could be used as propaganda to say look Jones didn't buy the evidence so you shouldn't eiither because he was a cop and if he doubted it so should you.

So in effect it would amount to holding him out as an authority and saying believe his opinion because he was a great cop.

So what do you think are in the 200 boxes that EP are so determined not to release - of course this will only be your opinion because you wont know for certain.

[grahameb]

So what do you think are in the 200 boxes that EP are so determined not to release - of course this will only be your opinion because you wont know for certain.

Well I believe they contain at least one set of the audio tapes of when the raid team went it? If they are among the documents I would like to listen to them. For I believe there is evidence still not revealed that needs to be examined. But sadly I also believe they will be released under the 50 year rule and by then everything will be a bit pointless?

[scipio_usmc]

Oh no! not the tar. I've had that before and its difficult to get off.

Were you trying to dress as a chicken or did you do it to go out and scare poor neighborhood children?

[scipio_usmc]

No It was not all released to the defence and I posted a list of evidence which they were not supplied with

There is evidence on the forum in an email from EP that there are 200 boxes under PII which they are refusing ( for a whole long list of reasons to release)

It was used as a defence for the changing of exhibit numbers that it was because of a transfer to the second file ( murder not suicide)  so I don't get your argument at all

Lastly if he is proved right and Jeremy is innocent perhaps he was not so incompetent after all

How could he be proved right?

The notion that Sheila killed everyone elses without getting a shred of physical evidence on her clothing/body and not suffering any cuts or abrasions or broken nails is laughable but not as laughable as the notion that she managed to kill herself with the moderator attached then after she was dead:

1) put the moderator away in the closet
2) moved from a seated position propped against something to a flat position
3) stuck the bible in a pool of blood that formed after she died and then opened and closed it while the blood was still wet

There's a greater chance of Taff Jones having faked his death than Sheila being the murderer. 

[grahameb]

Were you trying to dress as a chicken or did you do it to go out and scare poor neighborhood children?

Probably on trial for witchcraft knowing my luck? Serves me right for trying to make gold out of lead.