A shooting incident at White House farm

[lookout]

30 years on and they're still delving into PND among women,as it's come into the spotlight AGAIN !
A young,beautiful and capable young woman took her life after the birth of her baby,,and prior to her sad ending,she DIDN'T get the support that she desperately needed,,even though she had a loving husband and family,it wasn't enough.
This illness,and it is an illness,is an issue in itself,but remember that Sheila had other issues and a COLD family,who she finally took out her issues on.

[gringo]

I'm not talking about the Cardiff three or any other case. Why frame Jeremy when they could have just blamed Shelia?  If your answer is, "because they didn't like Jeremy" then I would find that most extraordinary.

  I have always believed that something during the raid needed to be covered up and events snowballed into framing Jeremy but this is just my belief.
   My answer isn't "because they didn't like Jeremy" and there is nothing extraordinary at all in the police framing people they know to be innocent . It is in fact all too ordinary that the police lie and cover up for many reasons.
    Why do you think police framed Eddie Gilfoyle ? Using your reasoning they could have just admitted that they had evidence to prove that Paula committed suicide but they didn't and framed Eddie anyway.
    The notion that the police will frame people but only if they don't know the real perpetrators is nonsensical and doesn't stand up to scrutiny anyway.
 

[Caroline]

The police knew who the real culprits were at Hillsborough but conspired to place the blame elsewhere.
   Eddie Gilfoyle was framed despite police having the information which proved he was innocent and that his wife had committed suicide.
   It is a strange distinction to make anyway in my opinion . If you are happy to acknowledge that the police have knowingly framed innocent people then why is it a stretch to believe that they wouldn't do so if they knew the real perpetrator.
   

Hillsborough is completely different, police more or less caused the incident to happen so tried to cover it up. There are still people that argue that Eddie Gilfoyle is guilty (although I don't know much about him) and didn't he ask his wife to write a suicide note (for whatever reason). I don't accept that they 'knew' Gilfoyle was/is innocent. Nor do I think it's a strange distinction - framing someone for a crime when you KNOW for a FACT who the real perpetrator is, makes no sense whatsoever.

[Roch]

The notion that the police will frame people but only if they don't know the real perpetrators is nonsensical and doesn't stand up to scrutiny anyway.

I kind of agree with this.  I'm sure there are noble minded police officers but I think the point Bill is making about the heavy politicking within this case is valid.  How many police officers break ranks and whistle blow external to their force? Of those who disagree internally, how many will go against an ACC?

[lookout]

Gringo,,the family--------again,played a part in Eddies' imprisonment. A beautiful,happy-go-lucky girl/woman,8 months pregnant and looking forward to the birth of their baby ( I signed her off at hospital on her final clinic appointment ) nothing appeared untoward,so very misleading to all concerned,as in Sheilas' case on the day of the tragedy as she was seen happily with the twins in the fields.
The police in Eddies' case omitted to produce diaries of Paulas' which they'd been" sitting on " for 16 years,which proved that Eddie played no part in the suicide. He's still fighting to this day as he was only released on appeal in 2010.

[Bill Robertson]

I've tried communicating this to many for a long time. For police corruption to take place you don't need every police officer in on it. The word from a higher authority changes everything. But I've been mocked for suggesting it.

You are absolutely correct. Most 'conspiracies' involve relatively few people. The vast majority of coppers understand that they are a very small cog in a very large wheel. Once it becomes clear which way the wind is blowing thoughts turn to careers and pensions and what the bosses want. And, in most cases, it is not necessary to lie, just to remain silent and keep one's head down. I think that you would find in this case the number of police officers who knowingly created false evidence is very small but considerably more kept quiet about their reservations and observations.

[Caroline]

I kind of agree with this.  I'm sure there are noble minded police officers but I think the point Bill is making about the heavy politicking within this case is valid.  How many police officers break ranks and whistle blow external to their force? Of those who disagree internally, how many will go against an ACC?

Sorry Roch, I don't agree, if this was the case, there would be other examples and none have been provided. Hillsborough is completely different and there is no reason to believe the police KNEW EG was innocent.

[Caroline]

Gringo,,the family--------again,played a part in Eddies' imprisonment. A beautiful,happy-go-lucky girl/woman,8 months pregnant and looking forward to the birth of their baby ( I signed her off at hospital on her final clinic appointment ) nothing appeared untoward,so very misleading to all concerned,as in Sheilas' case on the day of the tragedy as she was seen happily with the twins in the fields.
The police in Eddies' case omitted to produce diaries of Paulas' which they'd been" sitting on " for 16 years,which proved that Eddie played no part in the suicide. He's still fighting to this day as he was only released on appeal in 2010.

The diaries don't prove his innocence, simply that she had had suicidal thoughts in the past. If they knew about the diaries then yes, they framed him, but may also have had suspicions about his involvement. No one has been able to produce a case in which police knowingly framed an innocent man while knowing for certain who the real culprit was.

[Caroline]

You are absolutely correct. Most 'conspiracies' involve relatively few people. The vast majority of coppers understand that they are a very small cog in a very large wheel. Once it becomes clear which way the wind is blowing thoughts turn to careers and pensions and what the bosses want. And, in most cases, it is not necessary to lie, just to remain silent and keep one's head down. I think that you would find in this case the number of police officers who knowingly created false evidence is very small but considerably more kept quiet about their reservations and observations.

And all because one man didn't like Jeremy Bamber? He was just a DS, how did he manage to convince the rank and file to frame Jeremy Bamber just because he didn't like him when their was evidence he was innocent?

[lookout]

Hillsborough is completely different, police more or less caused the incident to happen so tried to cover it up. There are still people that argue that Eddie Gilfoyle is guilty (although I don't know much about him) and didn't he ask his wife to write a suicide note (for whatever reason). I don't accept that they 'knew' Gilfoyle was/is innocent. Nor do I think it's a strange distinction - framing someone for a crime when you KNOW for a FACT who the real perpetrator is, makes no sense whatsoever.

Caroline,,the way the Gilfoyle case was conducted was abominable. Yes,the family still think he's guilty,along with friends of theirs,but once it was learned of the background of his late wife through the immersion of the diaries,then the jig-saw was complete. Blood is still thicker than water though !
I knew of Eddie being at work at a hospital that morning and the tragedy occurred after he'd gone to work. No time of death was ever recorded and police interfered with the scene before the coroner carried out his part. I won't go into anything on an open forum.

A few years ago,Patti and myself were on a forum discussing the McCann case and a poster was convinced that the parents played a part in her disappearance,whereas I'd argued that they hadn't. This particular poster turned out to be a cop,or an ex-cop,who'd obviously overseen the Gilfoyle case because he preferred " not to discuss " it. The said poster didn't appear again !!

[Jan]

personally I can not think of any justification for "framing" a person whether innocent or guilty.A case should be tried on the evidence that is in existence.

Any framing could lead to either  an innocent person that the police THINK is guilty  being convicted  or if the framing is discovered it could lead to a guilty person being released.

Its a lose lose situation IMO.

[Caroline]

Caroline,,the way the Gilfoyle case was conducted was abominable. Yes,the family still think he's guilty,along with friends of theirs,but once it was learned of the background of his late wife through the immersion of the diaries,then the jig-saw was complete. Blood is still thicker than water though !
I knew of Eddie being at work at a hospital that morning and the tragedy occurred after he'd gone to work. No time of death was ever recorded and police interfered with the scene before the coroner carried out his part. I won't go into anything on an open forum.

A few years ago,Patti and myself were on a forum discussing the McCann case and a poster was convinced that the parents played a part in her disappearance,whereas I'd argued that they hadn't. This particular poster turned out to be a cop,or an ex-cop,who'd obviously overseen the Gilfoyle case because he preferred " not to discuss " it. The said poster didn't appear again !!

Hi Lookout, I'm not arguing that they didn't balls the case up, what I am saying is that it is not cut and dried that they KNEW for certain he was innocent. Just because they were useless idiots, doesn't mean they framed him knowing he didn't do it.

[Caroline]

personally I can not think of any justification for "framing" a person whether innocent or guilty.A case should be tried on the evidence that is in existence.

Any framing could lead to either  an innocent person that the police THINK is guilty  being convicted  or if the framing is discovered it could lead to a guilty person being released.

Its a lose lose situation IMO.

Totally agree Jansus!!

[lookout]

The diaries don't prove his innocence, simply that she had had suicidal thoughts in the past. If they knew about the diaries then yes, they framed him, but may also have had suspicions about his involvement. No one has been able to produce a case in which police knowingly framed an innocent man while knowing for certain who the real culprit was.

I understand what you're saying,and I suppose in the case of Eddie,  because I'd met him and knew of him that I used a gut feeling after an" incident" I'd observed while working at the hospital,which when I'd heard about the tragedy a week later, I knew which way I was going with it.

Jeremy of course I don't know and have never met,but got the same feeling 30 years ago when I first saw the headlines, even though I realise that in cases such as this, 95% of the time it's a family member,,and I would imagine that the police would have taken this into consideration without looking in-depth at the real cause. That 5% will be hidden amongst documents/files with EP,and I feel will surface pretty soon.

[Bill Robertson]

And all because one man didn't like Jeremy Bamber? He was just a DS, how did he manage to convince the rank and file to frame Jeremy Bamber just because he didn't like him when their was evidence he was innocent?

Stan Jones was a tool. A willing guy who saw which way the political wind was blowing and he pitched in. Of course he was not the prime mover. The motivation for prosecuting JB came from a higher authority. If ACC Simpson had not felt the heat from the family nothing would have happened.
Stan Jones let it be known that he was sceptical about JB's innocence and spoke out against his boss, Taff Jones. The senior officers knew that they had someone who would do as they wished. Stan Jones could be manipulated, wound-up like a toy and pointed in whatever direction was deemed necessary.

Let's not overlook the probability that ACC Simpson probably just wanted to go through the motions of investigating and prosecuting JB to get the relatives off his back. Quite likely he couldn't care tuppence whether JB was found guilty or not as long as he demonstrated a willingness to investigate. This case is all about appearances and politics, way beyond Stan Jones's level.