There was no reason why Sheila should wake: Was there ?

[Alias]

I don´t believe Sheila had a driver´s licence. Anybody know?

Sheila got on fine with Jeremy, just like average siblings do. They actually saw more of one another than the average grown siblings. It is a myth they did´t get along well. We have been there very recently, and I refuse to repeat myself - I know certain people are going to ask for more detail. Go through my posts - you´ll find them.

[grahameb]

Most of my thread post is fact. If Jeremy committed the massacre. The twins 'were' shot in their sleep.

Was Sheila lead or carried to the main bedroom ?

Or did she walk, skip, jump or run? Nonbody knows. Anything anyone says would still only be guesswork.
I'm afraid that most of the things confidently say about what happened that night is still only guesswork? What they assert may sound convincing because there are so few facts that we actually know we can make up practically anything. The more facts we have on a case the closer we can get to what actually happened. But as it is any of us can twist almost anything into a scenario simply because of the lack of facts.
A good exercise that would be beneficial to everyone will be to list the actual known proven facts that are known and that in itself will tell us just how little we actually do know about the case.

[scipio_usmc]

I have never heard such a thing before you have said it. For your information my friend met both Jeremy and Sheila together when they were out with the young farmers. He said that they both appeared to get on together very well. In any case there was a long time between Sunday and Tuesday.

I don't know how old they were at the time your friend supposedly met them but her husband had a great number of things to say in these regards that were contemporaneous to the murders.

He seems to confirm a number of points of the family concerning Sheila having coordination problems, issues between Jeremy and Sheila (Julie said they didn't get along because he had no patience or something along those lines I would have to go read her statements again she said she got along better than him with Sheila)

He is also the one who said that she had a better relationship with June as of late, particularly bonding over religion.  He also mentioned tidbits about how she loved the twins but didn't really do much with them she seemed to be like those parents who let their kids go play and spend all day doing their own thing. This is the kind of thing which tends to support the doctor's assessment she would have welcomed part time foster care.

He mentioned that of the adults Nevill usually went to bed the earliest, then June and that Sheil ahad no set time she would go early or late but as of late she had been tired  a lot and going to bed early. 

The farm secretary didn't like the extended family much it seems but still is the one who said that Nevill was convinced Jeremy wanted him dead. That is interesting because she seemed to think they were stealing from the estate so had no reason to want to help them.  So this is another thing that strikes me as credible.  Telling Ann Eaton he would soon be her partner in the Caravan site and his talk about the Caravan profits supporting him getting a Porsche also are very interesting.

In isolation these things are simply interesting but when looked at in combination with everything they take on some significance and cast things in quite a different light.

[Adam]

Or did she walk, skip, jump or run? Nonbody knows. Anything anyone says would still only be guesswork.
I'm afraid that most of the things confidently say about what happened that night is still only guesswork? What they assert may sound convincing because there are so few facts that we actually know we can make up practically anything. The more facts we have on a case the closer we can get to what actually happened. But as it is any of us can twist almost anything into a scenario simply because of the lack of facts.
A good exercise that would be beneficial to everyone will be to list the actual known proven facts that are known and that in itself will tell us just how little we actually do know about the case.

I do not think Sheila hopped or skipped to the main bedroom.

As I said most of my thread post is fact.

[Adam]

Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.

A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.

The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.

June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.

Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.

There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.

This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.

So why would Sheila wake ?

[Adam]

If Sheila's bedroom door was shut, I do not see how she would have heard anything.

Under sedation. In a deep sleep. Behind a closed door. Most of what was going was noiseless or in another part of a big house anyway.

Yet people say Jeremy was not responsible as Sheila would have woken and fought to save the lives of her children and herself.

[maggie]

Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.
A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.
The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.
June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.
Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.
There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.
This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.
So why would Sheila wake ?

Adam, first, are you aware that the .22 silencer/moderator/supressor does not make
the sound of the gun firing much different. The sound of an achultz .22 firing without a silencer is like a handclap using the silencer dulls it a bitand supresses the sonic boom which the human ear doesn't hear but is heard by animals which can warn them to move and escape before the bullet hits them. It des not silence the rifle shot therefore contrary to your assertion there is some noise.
More ofen than not schizophrenics suffer from insomnia therefore coupled with the fact neither of the beds in Sheila's room appear to have been slept in makes it a possibility Sheila was not in a deep sleep but awake. According to the pm report Sheila was NOT sedated, nothing in her system except haloperidol an anti psychotic and traces of cannabis.
Whether Sheila was asleep or not your statements are not fact you simply do not KNOW if Sheila was asleep only that there is a possibility that she was, enough for circumstantial evidence in a court but not fact.

[grahameb]

I don't know how old they were at the time your friend supposedly met them but her husband had a great number of things to say in these regards that were contemporaneous to the murders.

He seems to confirm a number of points of the family concerning Sheila having coordination problems, issues between Jeremy and Sheila (Julie said they didn't get along because he had no patience or something along those lines I would have to go read her statements again she said she got along better than him with Sheila)

He is also the one who said that she had a better relationship with June as of late, particularly bonding over religion.  He also mentioned tidbits about how she loved the twins but didn't really do much with them she seemed to be like those parents who let their kids go play and spend all day doing their own thing. This is the kind of thing which tends to support the doctor's assessment she would have welcomed part time foster care.

He mentioned that of the adults Nevill usually went to bed the earliest, then June and that Sheil ahad no set time she would go early or late but as of late she had been tired  a lot and going to bed early. 

The farm secretary didn't like the extended family much it seems but still is the one who said that Nevill was convinced Jeremy wanted him dead. That is interesting because she seemed to think they were stealing from the estate so had no reason to want to help them.  So this is another thing that strikes me as credible.  Telling Ann Eaton he would soon be her partner in the Caravan site and his talk about the Caravan profits supporting him getting a Porsche also are very interesting.

In isolation these things are simply interesting but when looked at in combination with everything they take on some significance and cast things in quite a different light.

I believe he ended his book by saying something like, "My poor mixed up Sheila"? Not sure of the exact words as it has been a long time since I read it?
My friend said he spoke to them a few months before the murders.

[scipio_usmc]

Adam, first, are you aware that the .22 silencer/moderator/supressor does not make
the sound of the gun firing much different. The sound of an achultz .22 firing without a silencer is like a handclap using the silencer dulls it a bitand supresses the sonic boom which the human ear doesn't hear but is heard by animals which can warn them to move and escape before the bullet hits them. It des not silence the rifle shot therefore contrary to your assertion there is some noise.
More ofen than not schizophrenics suffer from insomnia therefore coupled with the fact neither of the beds in Sheila's room appear to have been slept in makes it a possibility Sheila was not in a deep sleep but awake. According to the pm report Sheila was NOT sedated, nothing in her system except haloperidol an anti psychotic and traces of cannabis.
Whether Sheila was asleep or not your statements are not fact you simply do not KNOW if Sheila was asleep only that there is a possibility that she was, enough for circumstantial evidence in a court but not fact.

The difference between using a moderator or not with a rifle like the Anschutz is the difference between a cap gun and firing a .22.  A suppressed 22 sounds like a cap gun. There is actually a significant difference because unsuppressed it can damage hearing.

Police said Sheila's bed looked to them like it had been slept in and quickly made up.  She coudl have slept on the bed instead of in it.  Insomnia doesn't mean one doesn't go to bed at all it usually results in one lying awake in bed.  Sheila complained about insomia from her medicaitons but it subsides when she stopped taking 200MG which required her to take a daily countering agent which is notorius for causing agitation and sleeping problems. 

[lookout]

 Sheila also took amphetamines ( speed/Benzedrine ) which would keep her awake most nights.

[Jan]

Sheila didn't stay awake, she was going to bed early according to her husband because her new medicine made her drowsy.  She left the party on the Sunday before the murders early to go to bed for that reason.  She could not drive home herself because she lacked the coordination to drive which is one of the reasons the cousins felt she would have lacked the coordination to carry out the murders. Her husband arranged for Jeremy to drive her which she didn't like at all because she did not want to be alone with Jeremy she did not get along with him at all.

I doubt if the cousins knew much about her or her illness - they as much as admitted that in their original statements -so I think that is assumption on your part.

Also there are statements that showed that Jeremy was actually quite helpful to his sister and his nephews so I don't accept your second statement either.

[grahameb]

I do not think Sheila hopped or skipped to the main bedroom.

As I said most of my thread post is fact.

Adam I think what you meant to say was "Some of my thread was fact. Most was guessword".

[grahameb]

Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. NOT FACT BUT POSSIBLE. People have been known to shut their bedroom doors when going to sleep.

A silencer was used = No noise. FACT.

The twins were shot in bed and did not wake = No noise. FACT.

June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. FACT.

Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. FACT.

There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. FACT.

This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. FACT.

So why would Sheila wake ?

(1) The silencer was used. Allegedly.

(2) The twins were shot in bed. The reason they did notr wake? Possibl;y because they were shot first. But only my opinion, equal to your opinion.

(3) No noise? Assumption. Not proven.

(4) Nevill and Jeremy went downstairs? Presumption soas to fit your sceario. Unproven that he was even there?

(5) Brutal fight? Perhaps. Noise? Possibly. In another part of WHF? In the kitchen probably.

(6) All adults were awake. Proof? All died out of their beds. Fact.

[Adam]

The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.

Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping. 

June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream.  People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.

This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.

Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.

Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.


There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have  been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.

[maggie]

The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.

Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping. 

June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream.  People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.
This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.
Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.
Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.
There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have  been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.

You start from the point of believing everything the relatives said, everything EP stated, everything presented by the prosecution. Your mind is tightly closed to any other questions, doubts or possibilities and from this position you then make all sorts of assumptions and state them as fact, all very unconvincing Adam.