Author Topic: anyone believe we are not being watched?  (Read 6484 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2014, 11:53:PM »
 Like the ex-cop I was talking to yesterday,Grahame. He said EP need sorting out,badly ! The guy used to police Wales.

Offline grahameb

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2014, 11:59:PM »
Like the ex-cop I was talking to yesterday,Grahame. He said EP need sorting out,badly ! The guy used to police Wales.
lookout the Met police have always been very critical of Essex police.

Offline lookout

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2014, 12:08:AM »
lookout the Met police have always been very critical of Essex police.





I'm not surprised,Grahame. More like the Keystone Kops !

Offline Caroline

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2014, 12:12:AM »
You are one of those a coward to actually state what your views are and why. You said you leaned towards guilt, got attacked by people you like so went to your standby now of having basically no opinion either way.

You are the one who started the thread asking why others believe he is guilty or innocent but were refusing to give your reasoning.

It is a fact that those defending Jeremy do a poor job explaining any raitonal basis for their opinions there and in every other thread.  I laid out my case in full which Jeremy supporters do so?

Unsupported opinions are worthles sin debates and yet that is all Jeremy supporters seem to have.  You can try pretending they are so competent at debating and posting evidence and facts all you like the truth is that they are not.   

Telling me I am wrong is nothing PROVE me wrong.  Post EVIDENCE.  You can't the only gloating that could be had was that I was wrong about an issue that favored Jeremy.  I believed a lie I was told that there was proof a call was made. Prove me wrong on all the critical issues I raise like how the person who beat Nevill would have had gotten back spatter on his/her clothing, would have left prints on the blood that was on the rifle unless wearing gloves, would have damaged their hands unless wearing gloves (particularly as the rifle stock broke where the killer would have been holding it) and that a female with long nails would likely have damaged her nails during such an episode.  The best any Jeremy supporters could do was say there was no struggle.  They simply close their eyes to reality and say the police caused most of the damage and Nevill fell and hurt himself in the process.  How do most people characterize these claims?  As absurd baseless lies.     

Those suggesting the blood evidence was planted have been thoroughly humilated and pretending otherwise is akin to denying there was a struggle in the kitchen.  I even got PMs asking me to take is easy on Mike because he has mental problems though others say he is a filthy liar who deserves no mercy. 

You and the others here hide behind the "we have the right to believe anything we feel like" claim as if posting baseless opinions means squat. 

The way to win a debate requires making coherent arguments and backing them up with evidence. The facts of this case are on my side so for me it is easy to do that.  The ones trying to go uphill are those asserting Jeremy was framed etc. 

Still the ineptness at which such is attempted is quite mind boggling and even infamous Jeremy supporters like Lomax are at best morons and at worst liars with so many bogus claims including that Sheila stopped taking her medication. 

The only way Bamber supporters will ever convince anyone rational to join their ranks is if they can come up with rational positions supported by evidence but the evidenc eis against them so they have to distort.  That is really the heart of the matter.

What a foolish man you are! I think I have been one of the most open people on the forum. I do lean towards guilt but I still think he was framed, everyone knows what I think, I don't need to hammer my opinion down people's throats. I'm not like you, I won't flood the board with 'my opinion' and pass it off as evidence.

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Offline nugnug

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2014, 12:25:AM »
lookout the Met police have always been very critical of Essex police.

a bit of pot kettle and black there though.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2014, 12:38:AM »
May I venture to say that that sounds exactly like yourself and your own reasoning. It all depends on known proveable facts about the case. Not witness statements about who said what. Bcause they all have the potential to be biased for one reason or another. Personally I am concerned about the unco-operation of the police for one thing in releasing the audio tapes of the raid team. I have an enquiring mind and wonder what could be the reason for their reluctance to reveal the contents of those tapes even to the CCRC? I have serious reservations about the whole case and the way it was handled to be entirely convinced of Bamber's guilt.

My reasoning is sound. 

1) Sheila had no reason to kill anyone and was unlikely to do so
2) Unlikely that Sheila would have the capablity to commit the murders because of her lack of coordination and not being familiar with the weapon.  There is no reaosn to believe she would have known how to chamber a round even let alone known how to load 11 rounds which is how many the gun had when June and Nevill were shot in the bedroom
3) The time of night makes it unlikely for Sheila to suddenly become agitated, others would not have been awake to agitate her and she had no problems sleeping at the time because her medication made her drowsy and she had been sleeping well
4) It is extremely unlikely Jeremy would find the gun in the closet with the scope and suppressor reoved as he claims
5) it is extremely unlikely Jeremy would get the rifle out to shoot at rabbits at all let alone at 9PM at night
6) it is extremely unlikely Nevill and June would have left the rifle with the loaded magazine nearby at all but especially with the twins there.
7) It is extremely unlikely Sheila would use 18-20 bullets from the stockpile Jeremy claims to have left out but go the closet to get 5-7 additional (though 30 remained in the kitchen) and also to attach the moderator
8) Had Sheila actually killed anyone there would have been physical evidence to indicate it because unlike Jeremy she would not have worn gloves and would have no reason/ability to dispose of evidence after her death.  So she would have had blood of the victims on her, her prints would have been left in their blood (especially the blood on outside of the rifle and she coudl have touched other things thus leaving her prints on objects in their blood), she would have had gunshot residue on her clothing and hands and also elevated levels of lead. 
9) No physical evidence to indicate Sheila is the one who beat Nevill though such evidence would not be concealable because it would not only include his blood on her but also damaged hands not only nails but a cut to the hand that held the stock as it broke.  If she wore gloves it would not be consistent with a crazy rage but rather planned execution and such gloves would have been found but none were located ever ever
10) the notion Nevill would phone Jeremy is absurd because
A) Nevill did not trust Jeremy he told the farm secretary he believed Jeremy wanted him dead
B) Sheila did not get a long well with Jeremy so instead of calming her down he would likely cause her to shoot, indeed Nevill was the adult who had  acalming effect on her so was in the best position to calm her
C) Nevill was stronger than Jeremy so physically had as good or better ability to disarm Sheila than Jeremy did
D) Jeremy had an answering machine and his phone was on the ground level.  He would be unlikely to hear the phone but even if he did hwake up and go to answer the answering machine would pick up before he could reach the phone.  So at best he could expect to be able to leave a message and hope Jeremy would get up and to listen to it right away instead of waiting till morning.   
E) It would take Jeremy time to answer the phone, dress, drive there and find a way in so something on the order of 20 minutes.  Why would he want to wait to risk being shot while waiting those 20 minutes instead of trying to disarm her and save himself or his family?
F) Sheila seeing him on the phone would likely provoke her to fire.  Why would he want to risk that instead of arming himself if scared to try to disarm her with his bare hands?  There were guns, knives and other potential weapons nearby.
G) The shooting started in the master bedroom as he and June were shot 11 times.  There is no rational explanation how Nevill would be using the phone, have Sheila catch him and not shoot him but instead to push the button down (exposing her to being disarmed but him failing to take advantage) then march him upstairs and shoot him in the bedroom with June.  If in a crazy rage she would have shot him downstairs not marched him upstairs to do it and if he went up there himself why would he leave the phone off the hook?
11) Julie's testimony is credible
12) Sheila can't have killed herself because
A) She was shot with the moderator then after dead it was removed and placed in the closet   
B) She was shot seated with her back against something then dragged flat while still bleeding
C) The bible was placed in a pool of her blood that formed after her death and was opened and closed before the blood dried
She can't have done any of these things after her death the killer had to do it.
13) Jeremy lied about various things like the gun not fitting in the closet with the accessories attached and kept changing his story as necessary to try to pretend he was innocent including changing from claiming he hadn't used the murder weapon after Anthony but claiming he used it multipl times the week prior to the murder when he needed ot pretend that the scope and suppressor were routinely taken off after use. 

There are other things but these are the main foundations for my conclusion that Jeremy did it and provide a well supported basis for such conclusion.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Martin

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2014, 06:49:AM »
You are one of those a coward to actually state what your views are and why. You said you leaned towards guilt, got attacked by people you like so went to your standby now of having basically no opinion either way.

You are the one who started the thread asking why others believe he is guilty or innocent but were refusing to give your reasoning...



What a foolish man you are! I think I have been one of the most open people on the forum. I do lean towards guilt but I still think he was framed, everyone knows what I think, I don't need to hammer my opinion down people's throats. I'm not like you, I won't flood the board with 'my opinion' and pass it off as evidence.

Caroline

The trouble is not that you are willing to ram it down people’s throats, but that you are unwilling to explain it at all. Here, you even give a percentage saying that you are 70/30 in favour of guilt.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg224669.html#msg224669

Yet you give no explanation for your opinion. Scipio, notwithstanding his typos, has a point.

How can you give a percentage without being able to give reasons?

It seems to me that assertions like that are meant to push the pro guilt message while saving you the trouble of justifying it. At least the likes of Adam and Scipio are up front with their views.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 06:50:AM by Martin »

Offline maggie

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2014, 08:00:AM »
Scipio calling Caroline a coward is a rediculous statement, also do you not understand one of the basic laws of debate ie. Attack the subject not the person. If Caroline doesn't want to enter into a factual argument with you that doesn't make her a coward just a person who has something more important to do like watch paint dry.

Caroline was an ardent 100% supporter of Jeremy but for reasons she has explained her beliefs have shifted making her far more unsure. That doesn't make her a coward but rather someone who can see more than one side of an argument and it is her right to believe whatever she chooses without being subject to personal insults, neither does she HAVE to answer to you who seems to think he is number one most important person on this forum.

With  respect, your arguments are mainly OPINIONS not facts however much you insist differently, yes you back these arguments up with examples and so called proof but in this case so few actual hard facts exist that any scenario can be bolstered by the opinions and supposition of others.  Repeatedly using AE's unsubstantiated statements and opinions as hard fact doesn't really PROVE anything.  To an open minded person, it can be taken on as a possibility but not solid evidence anymore than Jeremy's statements and opinions can be blindly believed without hard evidence.

Many of us on this site have been around too long and know the case too well for these arguments or this kind of bullying to succeed.. It becomes dreadfully boring to continually argue against others opinions put forward as facts and laced with insults towards anyone who has a different opinion, eventually you just give up and let them whitter on.

I would just like to add that references to the mental health of any poster, never mind the owner of the forum is totally unacceptable in any circumstances on this forum and speaks volumes  about your own attitude. I would ask you to curb your language in the future.
With thanks Maggie
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 09:15:AM by maggie »

Offline Caroline

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2014, 10:19:AM »
Caroline

The trouble is not that you are willing to ram it down people’s throats, but that you are unwilling to explain it at all. Here, you even give a percentage saying that you are 70/30 in favour of guilt.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5219.msg224669.html#msg224669

Yet you give no explanation for your opinion. Scipio, notwithstanding his typos, has a point.

How can you give a percentage without being able to give reasons?

It seems to me that assertions like that are meant to push the pro guilt message while saving you the trouble of justifying it. At least the likes of Adam and Scipio are up front with their views.

Ha, ha!! Talk about an opportunist!! I have made my position clear, the fact that you can't gasp it would be your problem. I believe Jeremy is most likely guilty BUT that he was framed because EP wanted to 'secure' a conviction. I don't believe they KNEW he was innocent and went ahead and framed him anyway - there would be no reason.

Ypu can now sit back on the sideline waiting for your next opportunity to have ago. Pathetic!
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Offline Caroline

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2014, 10:26:AM »
Scipio calling Caroline a coward is a rediculous statement, also do you not understand one of the basic laws of debate ie. Attack the subject not the person. If Caroline doesn't want to enter into a factual argument with you that doesn't make her a coward just a person who has something more important to do like watch paint dry.

Caroline was an ardent 100% supporter of Jeremy but for reasons she has explained her beliefs have shifted making her far more unsure. That doesn't make her a coward but rather someone who can see more than one side of an argument and it is her right to believe whatever she chooses without being subject to personal insults, neither does she HAVE to answer to you who seems to think he is number one most important person on this forum.

With  respect, your arguments are mainly OPINIONS not facts however much you insist differently, yes you back these arguments up with examples and so called proof but in this case so few actual hard facts exist that any scenario can be bolstered by the opinions and supposition of others.  Repeatedly using AE's unsubstantiated statements and opinions as hard fact doesn't really PROVE anything.  To an open minded person, it can be taken on as a possibility but not solid evidence anymore than Jeremy's statements and opinions can be blindly believed without hard evidence.

Many of us on this site have been around too long and know the case too well for these arguments or this kind of bullying to succeed.. It becomes dreadfully boring to continually argue against others opinions put forward as facts and laced with insults towards anyone who has a different opinion, eventually you just give up and let them whitter on.

I would just like to add that references to the mental health of any poster, never mind the owner of the forum is totally unacceptable in any circumstances on this forum and speaks volumes  about your own attitude. I would ask you to curb your language in the future.
With thanks Maggie

Thanks Maggie, the man is a jerk but at least it gave Martin the opportunity to leave my profile alone for 5 minutes and actually post something (unconstructive)  ;D ;D ;D ;D. It seems if you're not sure about guilt or innocence, it's an even worse crime to Martin than promoting guilt. Irrational as ever ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline lookout

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2014, 10:31:AM »
a bit of pot kettle and black there though.






Yes it is a bit,nugs.,

Offline grahameb

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2014, 11:21:AM »
a bit of pot kettle and black there though.
Yes. there has always been ravalry between them.

Offline grahameb

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2014, 11:28:AM »
Scipio calling Caroline a coward is a rediculous statement, also do you not understand one of the basic laws of debate ie. Attack the subject not the person. If Caroline doesn't want to enter into a factual argument with you that doesn't make her a coward just a person who has something more important to do like watch paint dry.

Caroline was an ardent 100% supporter of Jeremy but for reasons she has explained her beliefs have shifted making her far more unsure. That doesn't make her a coward but rather someone who can see more than one side of an argument and it is her right to believe whatever she chooses without being subject to personal insults, neither does she HAVE to answer to you who seems to think he is number one most important person on this forum.

With  respect, your arguments are mainly OPINIONS not facts however much you insist differently, yes you back these arguments up with examples and so called proof but in this case so few actual hard facts exist that any scenario can be bolstered by the opinions and supposition of others.  Repeatedly using AE's unsubstantiated statements and opinions as hard fact doesn't really PROVE anything.  To an open minded person, it can be taken on as a possibility but not solid evidence anymore than Jeremy's statements and opinions can be blindly believed without hard evidence.

Many of us on this site have been around too long and know the case too well for these arguments or this kind of bullying to succeed.. It becomes dreadfully boring to continually argue against others opinions put forward as facts and laced with insults towards anyone who has a different opinion, eventually you just give up and let them whitter on.

I would just like to add that references to the mental health of any poster, never mind the owner of the forum is totally unacceptable in any circumstances on this forum and speaks volumes  about your own attitude. I would ask you to curb your language in the future.
With thanks Maggie
Caroline is one of the best investigators on the forum. She has the ability to see the whole picture. By "the whole picture" I mean that although she has views about Bamber's guilt she can also see the inconsistences in the case.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2014, 08:04:PM »
Ha, ha!! Talk about an opportunist!! I have made my position clear, the fact that you can't gasp it would be your problem. I believe Jeremy is most likely guilty BUT that he was framed because EP wanted to 'secure' a conviction. I don't believe they KNEW he was innocent and went ahead and framed him anyway - there would be no reason.

Ypu can now sit back on the sideline waiting for your next opportunity to have ago. Pathetic!

Your positions are contradictory not clear and you have presented no basis to support these views.

What evidence do you think was planted and why?  What evidence do you rely on to establsh that such things were planted and he was framed?

What evidence makes you think he is guilty when you remove the evidnece that you say was planted?

You never layed out any of this since I have been here and looking at your older posts I have found nothing of the sort either.

I have repeatedly summarized the basis for my views including in this thread.  I never see you do the same.

I have no idea if you think Jeremy is guilty for a valid reason or not. I have no idea if you have a valid reaosn for believing Jeremy was framed.  Since you won't provide your basis there is no way to assess it which seems to be the way you want things to stay.

Mike is out there trying to prove Sheila had only 1 wound as of Dr Craig's visit and thus the second shot had to be fired after.  His supposed proof is falling apart under scrutiny but at least there is an actual debate going on because he is putting his views out there and evidence is being debated.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline grahameb

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Re: anyone believe we are not being watched?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2014, 08:28:PM »
Your positions are contradictory not clear and you have presented no basis to support these views.

What evidence do you think was planted and why?  What evidence do you rely on to establsh that such things were planted and he was framed?

What evidence makes you think he is guilty when you remove the evidnece that you say was planted?

You never layed out any of this since I have been here and looking at your older posts I have found nothing of the sort either.

I have repeatedly summarized the basis for my views including in this thread.  I never see you do the same.

I have no idea if you think Jeremy is guilty for a valid reason or not. I have no idea if you have a valid reaosn for believing Jeremy was framed.  Since you won't provide your basis there is no way to assess it which seems to be the way you want things to stay.

Mike is out there trying to prove Sheila had only 1 wound as of Dr Craig's visit and thus the second shot had to be fired after.  His supposed proof is falling apart under scrutiny but at least there is an actual debate going on because he is putting his views out there and evidence is being debated.
Master scipio you must realise that some people do not have fixed views on this case, quite simply because they have doubts and not views. Their minds are not made up as yours apparently is. You have made some very good points, such as the question did Sheila know how to chamber a bullet and a few other points, which I personally have taken on board. But some just cannot make up their mind or have any fixed thoughts about what happened. Probably because there are various questions with which they are not satisfied with.
It doesn't mean they're hypocrites, or liars or even cowards. They are questioning and considering different things for themselves and if I may be so bold to say so, they do not like to be bullied into accepting someone else's opinions if it doesn't seem right to them?