The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003

[nugnug]

When we were talking about the hoodie one thing been bothering me, with th eblood on inside of hood and under arm same side I believe the only explanation was that Jodi was lying on her side arm extended and bleeding from an injury. The problem I have is that it was likely that Jodi was unconscious at this point as it would have taken time for blood to flow to the areas it was found.
The thing is I always thought the clothes were taken of during the initial fight but it would seem that wasn't the case then, so at what point are they removed and the defender wounds inflicted? Was she possibly stripped when she was unconscious but then would she be able to put up the fight she did having just gained consciousness ?

well that's fairly easy to determine if the were riped they were taken of in the strugel if they wernt they were taken of after or before.

[sandra L]

When we were talking about the hoodie one thing been bothering me, with th eblood on inside of hood and under arm same side I believe the only explanation was that Jodi was lying on her side arm extended and bleeding from an injury. The problem I have is that it was likely that Jodi was unconscious at this point as it would have taken time for blood to flow to the areas it was found.
The thing is I always thought the clothes were taken of during the initial fight but it would seem that wasn't the case then, so at what point are they removed and the defender wounds inflicted? Was she possibly stripped when she was unconscious but then would she be able to put up the fight she did having just gained consciousness ?

Because of the way the evidence was recorded and presented, it's impossible to tell what was where, in terms of the clothing - I think the hoodie and t shirt were beyond the body (to the west) - hoodie in the bushes to the right, t shirt pieces on the track, the shoes and bra were to the east of the body by a couple of feet, and the underpants and glasses further east still. I've never been able to work out exactly where the bra strap and two pound coins were found.

If the spread of items means Jodi was moving from west to east, then does that mean she wasn't unconscious where the hoodie and t shirt were found? (There was blood where the glasses and underpants were found as well). Also, I had a horrible thought on the basis of another case I was reading about. Only one of the cut-throat injuries (out of 12 - 20) was the fatal one. Is it possible that non-fatal injuries to Jodi's neck caused some of the blood staining prior to the fatal wound being inflicted? In the other case I was reading, the vocal chords were cut, but the wound was not immediately fatal, meaning the attack continued but the victim was unable to scream for help.

If a neck injury was inflicted while Jodi was lying on her side (but not unconscious), and she managed to somehow scramble away from her attacker, the hoodie being pulled off in the process, that might also account for the armpit stain.

[gordo30]

A while back I spent many hours over a few days going through crimes where the victim had had their throats cut and none even came near 12-20. It would be unusual for the first cut to not be fatal but not impossible and would the killer continue to try and cut the throat or would they simply just stab.
I always though the wounds to the neck were an attempt to obliterate the neck of some form of evidence as even in rage it would have dissapated by the time you had made 10 cuts let alone going further.

[sandra L]

The pathologist was of the opinion that the neck wounds were bi-directional, slashing type wounds which is, as you say, unusual in terms of both the ferocity and the sheer number of wounds. I had never thought about the fatal wound not being the first wound before - it was only when I read about the other case that I considered the possibility.

If there had been a non-fatal wound to the neck area, then there would have been three serious injuries producing copious amounts of blood before the fatal wound was inflicted. That, in itself, might account for the previously inexplicably small amount of blood spray on the wall.

Contrary to previous belief, the gash to Jodi's face was not post-mortem (and obviously the defence wounds weren't). But the defence wounds on Jodi's arm were inflicted after the hoodie was off - there is no blood staining on the hoodie that corresponds to the arm injuries.

I do agree that the neck wounds appear to have been either an attempt to obliterate other evidence, or they were a concerted attempt at decapitation.

One other thing - why use the trousers to tie her hands? Wouldn't it have been easier to use the hoodie? Could the hoodie have been used as some sort of mask/blindfold, (i.e. the hood the "wrong way" over Jodi's face) - that would account for blood on the inside of the "wrong" side of the hood as the blood related to the known injuries?

[gordo30]

We can't discount a non fatal wound to the neck first but things don't stack up with that as that type of wound wouldn't account for the spray as it would need to be arterial for that, it may account for the blood on foliage. That type of wound would have caused saturation on the clothing but items like the shoes one would think would have been contaminated with blood. Was she naked at that time? Well hard to tell but I would imagine that shock and her will would have meant that Jodi was trying to escape her attacker so was there any injuries to the soles of her feet? Or were her hands heavily blood stained?

The assault for me happened in 5 stages.

Phase 1.
Initial assault identical to a (cat fight) hair torn out, bruising to face and head,bruising to hands and possible bite mark to hand.

Phase 2.
Knocked out by some blow that rendered her unconscious and either stripped at this point or later on.

Phase 3.
After gaining conciousness, being strangled and stripped after uncountiousness. The presence of petechiae tells us that a definite attempt to kill Jodi through strangulation. Stripping had to have happened before the knife was produced so in either of these two phases.


Phase 4.
The fatal wound is administered.

Phase 5.
The staging of crime scene and post mortem mutilations

[gordo30]

I don't see an attempt at decapitation as that would require 1/2 cuts but we're talking of a minimum of 12 defined cuts.

I think the trousers being used as binding was a practical one, I feel the trousers were used to pull Jodi into the position and area she was found, a hoodie would be useless in those circumstances.

[sandra L]

We can't discount a non fatal wound to the neck first but things don't stack up with that as that type of wound wouldn't account for the spray as it would need to be arterial for that, it may account for the blood on foliage.

What I meant was that with three heavily bleeding wounds (the pathologist said the arm wounds would have been fatal "over time" ) there would have been less arterial spray when the fatal blow was inflicted because there was less blood circulating due to blood loss from the other injuries.

Also, I'm still not convinced that the spray was arterial - the positioning and amount of blood could equally be explained as having been deposited from Jodi's injured arm flailing.

That type of wound would have caused saturation on the clothing but items like the shoes one would think would have been contaminated with blood. Was she naked at that time? Well hard to tell but I would imagine that shock and her will would have meant that Jodi was trying to escape her attacker so was there any injuries to the soles of her feet? Or were her hands heavily blood stained?

There were no injuries to her feet, but clear evidence that she had been walking and/or crawling (I would say definitely crawling) without shoes. Her socks were dirt stained inside and out, suggesting they were replaced after having been initially removed. Her hands were filthy, absolutely caked with mud - it's possible - maybe even probable - that that "mud" was a mixture of Jodi's blood and dirt.

The shoes and socks were pretty much blood free, as were her feet.

It fries my brain trying to figure it out. If Jodi was stripped in one place before the knife wounds were inflicted, how did her clothing come to be found over the distance it did, and how did the bloodstaining get to be where it was (and not be where it wasn't, if you know what I mean?)

The only heavily bloodstained clothes were the t shirt and the hoodie, and we already know that some of the staining did not correspond with wounds inflicted. The bra was unbelievably free of blood, to have been found so close to the body. The underpants were bloodstained, but not heavily and there were "drips" of blood on the lower leg of the trousers.

I think, as you say, Jodi had to have been naked, or at the very least, semi-naked before the worst injures were inflicted - there is no other explanation for the lack of blood on the other clothing that I can think of.

I have always thought he damage to the trousers - the button on the waistband was "pulled through" the fabric, and the rips in the side seams were consistent with "pulling" - indicated that Jodi was either trying to run or crawl away from her attacker who was pulling her back by the waistband/upper area of her trousers. Bear in mind these were baggy trousers, so the attacker would have been able to gain purchase on the fabric around the hip area. Even if her upper half had been stripped by that point,either the face and neck injuries had not been inflicted by that stage, or Jodi did not get very far at all, otherwise, she would have been crawling through her own blood and the bloodstaining on the trousers is not consistent with that.

And, of course, this scenario still doesn't explain the blood staining on the hoodie and t-shirt.

[nugnug]

theres a simple though somhat implausable answer to all this maybe the clothes found at the sene werent here

[gordo30]

I don't remember the hoodie ever being described as heavily bloodstained but simply blood on the inside of hoodie and under the arm pit, is it that theses areas were saturated? Having not seen the blood at base of the wall it was always described as spray but was it more like concentrated blood drops?
I suppose the snare and drops could have been an attempt by Jodi to somehow scale the wall and that she could well have been semi naked, top have make but trousers on and it was these that she was caught by and forced to another area.

[nugnug]

if jof wasnt on the bike that would mean that whoever really was on the bike was happy to go along with it and dident want to talk the police.

what id like to know is were they covering for jof or was he covering for them.

[sandra L]

I don't remember the hoodie ever being described as heavily bloodstained but simply blood on the inside of hoodie and under the arm pit, is it that theses areas were saturated? Having not seen the blood at base of the wall it was always described as spray but was it more like concentrated blood drops?
I suppose the snare and drops could have been an attempt by Jodi to somehow scale the wall and that she could well have been semi naked, top have make but trousers on and it was these that she was caught by and forced to another area.

From memory, one side of the hood was described as "heavily bloodstained," but on the inside. Thinking about that now, it makes no sense - if it was "heavily bloodstained," one would imagine that meant soaked through, so how would they know whether it had travelled from inside to outside or vice versa? The armpit stain was just that - a "large bloodstain."

The "spray" on the wall - it's a narrow, shallow arc of blood droplets, but there's really not much of it - if you imagine spray of anything under pressure, you would expect it to cover quite a large area, tailing off as the pressure/supply decreased - t's nothing like that at all. In no way at all could it be described as "litres" of blood sprayed onto the wall. The scenario you describe is along the lines of what I was thinking - having broken free, Jodi was either running, half running, half crawling or "scrambling" (the condition of her hands make me think this) and she was dragged either down or back by the waistband/hip area of her trousers. If that was the case and the arm injury had already been inflicted, being yanked backwards may have caused her to throw out her arm involuntarily, the blood from the arm would following the "arc" of her arm as she was swung downwards.

[nugnug]

sandar before allegdly pleasuring himself in the woods what did jaf say he was doing that i would imagine the police would of assked him to reacall the whole day.

[sandra L]

theres a simple though somhat implausable answer to all this maybe the clothes found at the sene werent here

Weren't hers, did you mean? It's a possibility, since nothing in this case makes any sense, but where would that take us? The hoodie seems to have been fairly positively identified - however   and I thought this was quite interesting - the police could not find an identical hoodie for the reconstruction - they ended up getting a copy of the Deftones logos and sticking them to a plain hoodie.

The t-shirt - we all know the shenanigans that went through to be finally described as one that was possibly maybe definitely JaJ's.

The shoes - again, apparently Jodi and JaJ had "identical" trainers, I think the only claimed difference was the colour of the piping (Jodi's had white piping, Jaj's had yellow)

Underwear - who would know?

[sandra L]

sandar before allegdly pleasuring himself in the woods what did jaf say he was doing that i would imagine the police would of assked him to reacall the whole day.

You'd have thought so, but no. He was only asked to account for his movements in the immediate run up to the littering incident. He volunteered the information about his actions the following morning, but there is zero information about what he did, where he was etc, prior to what he thought was "about 9 - 9.30 that night - it was getting grey dark."

Hmmm, it was daylight until after 10pm that day, but that's another story entirely!

The police were in his house on July 2nd 2003, taking statements from his mum and two of his brothers, but somehow they didn't speak to him until more than three years later - and then they accepted his interesting account at face value and left it at that.

[nugnug]

i suppose they dont know what he lookedlike at the time or how he was dressed.