Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 1056196 times)

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Offline nugnug

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Do you not think Luke Mitchell displayed early signs of psychopathy/personality disorder?

i don't think he was diagnosed with such and we are not qaulfied to diagnose him.

Offline sandra L

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Do you not think Luke Mitchell displayed early signs of psychopathy/personality disorder?

Already ruled out by the real psychologists and psychiatrists over and over and over again.

Offline nugnug

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Nugnug, you may have hit on something there.

YW, Jodi's cousin, lived just across the street from Gran. She lied about Jodi being in her flat on at least two occasions previously (the time Jodi skipped school and the time JaJ was sent looking for Jodi at silly o'clock in the morning because she hadn't returned to her Gran's by 10 o'clock... that was the time there was no instant search). Gran also lied to JuJ about Jodi being in YW's flat (and also to Corinne who was led to believe they were all staying over at the Gran's).

If Jodi left her own house too early to see Luke, she could have taken the same route through the complex, but gone to YW's, rather than her Gran's. YW's statements were not taken seriously by anyone (she was described as "not too bright".)

JF rubbished YW's claim that he had told her on July 1st that he was going to go to the police in the morning to tell them he had been on the path, on the moped.

YW's was the main place they all hung out to smoke weed, because they could. She was a young single mother with her own flat - no adults around to tell them what to do.

Instead of going to his Gran's, where he was supposed to be staying the night of the murder, JF left GD's ridiculously early (GD said it was because his gran was an early bedder and liked him in before she went to bed - utter nonsense, according to all of the other statements) - he went to YW's where he watched  the search party leaving from the gran's house. How many people are gazing out of the window at after 11 at night?

Anyway, I digress, there is a plausible theory of where Jodi could have been if she had to "be quiet...shoo...go out" way to early to meet Luke. Looking at it now, it is the most likely place she would have gone. It is also the most likely place where the cannabis that was still in her bloodstream when she was murdered, was ingested.

Why would YW say nothing if Jodi had been in her flat? Fear? Threats? Told not to tell? (Remember, JF claimed his gran told him not to go to the police because he was on the path at the "wrong time" - the only reason he was forced to come forward, in the end, was because he and GD had been seen by more than half a dozen witnesses.)

If there were no witnesses to Jodi being in YW's flat and she was never asked the question, she may have been convinced by others that it was not important. For the record, I have never seen any statement outlining what YW did the day of the murder (who was in her house throughout the day, for example). From what I know, she was vulnerable and suggestible.

For example, she didn't know what to do about the gloves, and she didn't report them to the police. A friend, when she found out about them, told the police, and only then were questions asked about them. If the friend hadn't found out, or hadn't bothered to say, that would have been another piece of information known to the family, but not to the investigators.

her cousen was also the only person jodi knew who had there own everyone else lived with there parents so im of the mind she must f been there becouse if she was with anybody else there mum or dad might of noticied.

Offline notsure

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So who is going to ask YW if Jodi went there instead. I find it very difficult to believe she was killed at the time they stated. It just fitted with the police timeframe. If they had done their job properly i.e. Hadn't left jodi's poor body laying outside, moving her etc I'm sure they would have got to the truth in the right way.

Was the gran ever called up on her lies? Did her lies come out in court.

Offline marty

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Oh dear, monthly allowance of internet time again

Offline sandra L

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It would be difficult, all these years later, to ask YW directly, no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, it means legitimate ways of doing so have to be found.

Gran's lies were not called out in court. Evidence of JF and GD's lies consisted almost entirely of cross-examination of their lie about the time they were on the path. Their reasons for not coming forward sooner were pretty much skipped over at trial - they were asked, mumbled the usual "I don't remember" and then things moved on. JF was quizzed about cutting his hair, but that line of questioning ended up going round in circles.

It's almost impossible to believe - if the defence QC had pushed the question "why did you not come forward before the police television appeal?" whatever answer JF had given, the opportunity would have been right there to read out his police statement about his Gran telling him not to.

None of the information about Jodi's previous "disappearance" two months earlier, and the complete lack of concern on that occasion, came out in court. None of the family's tendency to cover things up from each other came out (I'm not casting any negative aspersions there - the absolute truth is that they did cover for each other prior to Jodi's murder - from each other, from the authorities, from the medical profession.) It took 8 years for me to find out the truth about these matters, and then to face the utter disbelief that none of it made it into the trial.

This is from memory, so the timings may be out a little bit:

JuJ's claim was that JF was with JoJ the whole afternoon until "sometime after 3.30pm" - she couldn't say for sure, because she didn't hear him leave. BUT, JuJ called the doctor at either 3.05 or 3.20pm that day (really sorry, I don't remember which) to cancel JoJ's regular home visit (for his mental health conditions) which was scheduled for 5pm. When she was asked why, she said it was because JoJ wanted to smoke cannabis, and the doctors had said he should not because it negatively impacted both his medication and conditions.

Let's just break that down. According to the statements, JoJ and JF had been smoking cannabis since "lunchtime." It could be that JuJ was wrongly quoted when she said "wanted to smoke " rather than "had been" smoking.  But if JuJ was in the living room, calling the doctor between 3.05 and 3.20pm, how did she not hear JF leaving? He would have to have walked past the room where she had just called the doctor, the room where she sat in silence (doing some paperwork) until just before 4pm, when she went into the kitchen to start preparing dinner. More to the point, she is quite clear it was sometime after 3.30 - how did she know? In one statement, she suggests that JF is there when JoJ asks her to call the doctor, but according to JF and a statement attributed to JoJ, JF was long gone by then.

And why, of all days, was the appointment cancelled that day? It was clearly not an issue prior to that day - doctors' visits when JoJ had been smoking were not unheard of.

If the statement is accurate, and the appointment was cancelled because JoJ "wanted to (continue to) smoke", and JF was there when the request to call the doctor was made, did it not occur to JuJ that it was a little strange that JF left so soon afterwards? If the request was so that the smoking session could be extended (as JuJ seemed to be implying), why did JF leave almost as soon as the arrangement had been made?

It's important to understand, in terms of the timings here, that Jodi walked through the door no later than 4.05pm. There has never been any suggestion that JF was still in the house when Jodi arrived home from school.

Offline nugnug

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It would be difficult, all these years later, to ask YW directly, no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, it means legitimate ways of doing so have to be found.

Gran's lies were not called out in court. Evidence of JF and GD's lies consisted almost entirely of cross-examination of their lie about the time they were on the path. Their reasons for not coming forward sooner were pretty much skipped over at trial - they were asked, mumbled the usual "I don't remember" and then things moved on. JF was quizzed about cutting his hair, but that line of questioning ended up going round in circles.

It's almost impossible to believe - if the defence QC had pushed the question "why did you not come forward before the police television appeal?" whatever answer JF had given, the opportunity would have been right there to read out his police statement about his Gran telling him not to.

None of the information about Jodi's previous "disappearance" two months earlier, and the complete lack of concern on that occasion, came out in court. None of the family's tendency to cover things up from each other came out (I'm not casting any negative aspersions there - the absolute truth is that they did cover for each other prior to Jodi's murder - from each other, from the authorities, from the medical profession.) It took 8 years for me to find out the truth about these matters, and then to face the utter disbelief that none of it made it into the trial.

This is from memory, so the timings may be out a little bit:

JuJ's claim was that JF was with JoJ the whole afternoon until "sometime after 3.30pm" - she couldn't say for sure, because she didn't hear him leave. BUT, JuJ called the doctor at either 3.05 or 3.20pm that day (really sorry, I don't remember which) to cancel JoJ's regular home visit (for his mental health conditions) which was scheduled for 5pm. When she was asked why, she said it was because JoJ wanted to smoke cannabis, and the doctors had said he should not because it negatively impacted both his medication and conditions.

Let's just break that down. According to the statements, JoJ and JF had been smoking cannabis since "lunchtime." It could be that JuJ was wrongly quoted when she said "wanted to smoke " rather than "had been" smoking.  But if JuJ was in the living room, calling the doctor between 3.05 and 3.20pm, how did she not hear JF leaving? He would have to have walked past the room where she had just called the doctor, the room where she sat in silence (doing some paperwork) until just before 4pm, when she went into the kitchen to start preparing dinner. More to the point, she is quite clear it was sometime after 3.30 - how did she know? In one statement, she suggests that JF is there when JoJ asks her to call the doctor, but according to JF and a statement attributed to JoJ, JF was long gone by then.

And why, of all days, was the appointment cancelled that day? It was clearly not an issue prior to that day - doctors' visits when JoJ had been smoking were not unheard of.

If the statement is accurate, and the appointment was cancelled because JoJ "wanted to (continue to) smoke", and JF was there when the request to call the doctor was made, did it not occur to JuJ that it was a little strange that JF left so soon afterwards? If the request was so that the smoking session could be extended (as JuJ seemed to be implying), why did JF leave almost as soon as the arrangement had been made?

It's important to understand, in terms of the timings here, that Jodi walked through the door no later than 4.05pm. There has never been any suggestion that JF was still in the house when Jodi arrived home from school.

1 thing that struck me in jodis text to luke was she said I don't know what time ill get there now if she was going straight to lukes I think she would have a rough what time she would get there by that suggests to me that she was planning to go somewhere else before going to lukes.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 11:35:PM by nugnug »

Offline Stephanie

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Offline Stephanie

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It would be difficult, all these years later, to ask YW directly, no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, it means legitimate ways of doing so have to be found.

Gran's lies were not called out in court. Evidence of JF and GD's lies consisted almost entirely of cross-examination of their lie about the time they were on the path. Their reasons for not coming forward sooner were pretty much skipped over at trial - they were asked, mumbled the usual "I don't remember" and then things moved on. JF was quizzed about cutting his hair, but that line of questioning ended up going round in circles.

It's almost impossible to believe - if the defence QC had pushed the question "why did you not come forward before the police television appeal?" whatever answer JF had given, the opportunity would have been right there to read out his police statement about his Gran telling him not to.

None of the information about Jodi's previous "disappearance" two months earlier, and the complete lack of concern on that occasion, came out in court. None of the family's tendency to cover things up from each other came out (I'm not casting any negative aspersions there - the absolute truth is that they did cover for each other prior to Jodi's murder - from each other, from the authorities, from the medical profession.) It took 8 years for me to find out the truth about these matters, and then to face the utter disbelief that none of it made it into the trial.

This is from memory, so the timings may be out a little bit:

JuJ's claim was that JF was with JoJ the whole afternoon until "sometime after 3.30pm" - she couldn't say for sure, because she didn't hear him leave. BUT, JuJ called the doctor at either 3.05 or 3.20pm that day (really sorry, I don't remember which) to cancel JoJ's regular home visit (for his mental health conditions) which was scheduled for 5pm. When she was asked why, she said it was because JoJ wanted to smoke cannabis, and the doctors had said he should not because it negatively impacted both his medication and conditions.

Let's just break that down. According to the statements, JoJ and JF had been smoking cannabis since "lunchtime." It could be that JuJ was wrongly quoted when she said "wanted to smoke " rather than "had been" smoking.  But if JuJ was in the living room, calling the doctor between 3.05 and 3.20pm, how did she not hear JF leaving? He would have to have walked past the room where she had just called the doctor, the room where she sat in silence (doing some paperwork) until just before 4pm, when she went into the kitchen to start preparing dinner. More to the point, she is quite clear it was sometime after 3.30 - how did she know? In one statement, she suggests that JF is there when JoJ asks her to call the doctor, but according to JF and a statement attributed to JoJ, JF was long gone by then.

And why, of all days, was the appointment cancelled that day? It was clearly not an issue prior to that day - doctors' visits when JoJ had been smoking were not unheard of.

If the statement is accurate, and the appointment was cancelled because JoJ "wanted to (continue to) smoke", and JF was there when the request to call the doctor was made, did it not occur to JuJ that it was a little strange that JF left so soon afterwards? If the request was so that the smoking session could be extended (as JuJ seemed to be implying), why did JF leave almost as soon as the arrangement had been made?

It's important to understand, in terms of the timings here, that Jodi walked through the door no later than 4.05pm. There has never been any suggestion that JF was still in the house when Jodi arrived home from school.

How can this not be perceived as unkind when you are choosing to give a one sided account? What about the lies told by the Mitchell's and all the anomalies regarding their behaviours and statements made?
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Offline sandra L

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1 thing that struck in jodis text to luke was she said I don't know what time ill get there now if she was going straight to lukes I think she would have a rough what time she would get there by that suggests to me that she was planning to go somewhere else before going to lukes.

Exactly Nugnug. These were 14 year olds, getting up to stuff they shouldn't have been, trying to keep the oldies out of the equation. They had their own code ... "later" could have meant "I'm going to try to pick us up some stuff on the way down, don't know how long that'll take, see you when I get there."

It would also have explained Luke's reticence about why he didn't call JuJ back to find out where Jodi might be - he said, in his very first police interview "I didn't want to get her into trouble." By the time the interrogators were done with him, six weeks later, he was on the receiving end of a barrage of demands  to come up with an "acceptable" reason why he hadn't called back (because they wouldn't accept any of his perfectly reasonable explanations) this was the interrogation, by the way, in which the appeal court concluded that the interrogation officers had "lost it" and their behaviour was "deplorable" -

Offline Stephanie

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Already ruled out by the real psychologists and psychiatrists over and over and over again.

This is not evidence that it didn't or doesn't exist...


"Left largely to his own devices he became defiant, violent and brooding with an unhealthy fascination with knives, the occult and drugs. He was first brought to the attention of the mental health profession aged just 11, following a fight at King’s Park Primary in Dalkeith. Although the incident was just a minor skirmish with another pupil, Mitchell’s attitude was sufficiently troublesome to warrant a referral to a school psychiatrist. However, there appears to have been little further action taken by the education authorities or his parents to curb his behaviour. When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him. The incidents went on. When he moved to St David’s High, a music teacher found him trying to throttle another pupil and he was sent to an educational psychologist. He refused the expert’s help. Instead Mitchell became a rebellious, mysterious teenager who was heavily into cannabis and supplied his Goth friends with the drug.

Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
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Offline sandra L

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Apologies to all concerned.

None of the pseudo-psychologists, whose opinions of Luke appeared in the media, ever actually spoke to him.

The original claim about an "unusual" relationship came from the liaison officer (referred to in court as the "Vixen in the henhouse") - she was totally and completely aware that Luke was sleeping on a settee in the living room, because the medication he had been given for trauma made him dopey, sleepy, and potentially a danger to himself going up and down stairs.

Corinne slept on a sofa at the other side of the room, ready to direct him back to his sofa if he started wandering in the night.

The liaison officer, who knew about this arrangement, wrote in her report "We found the suspect and his mother sleeping in the same room"

That's it - unusual relationship explained. Sorry for my lack of restraint earlier.

Offline nugnug

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Exactly Nugnug. These were 14 year olds, getting up to stuff they shouldn't have been, trying to keep the oldies out of the equation. They had their own code ... "later" could have meant "I'm going to try to pick us up some stuff on the way down, don't know how long that'll take, see you when I get there."

It would also have explained Luke's reticence about why he didn't call JuJ back to find out where Jodi might be - he said, in his very first police interview "I didn't want to get her into trouble." By the time the interrogators were done with him, six weeks later, he was on the receiving end of a barrage of demands  to come up with an "acceptable" reason why he hadn't called back (because they wouldn't accept any of his perfectly reasonable explanations) this was the interrogation, by the way, in which the appeal court concluded that the interrogation officers had "lost it" and their behaviour was "deplorable" -

if she was going to get some canabis where would she have gone i asume to see jof but  was anywhere else she culd of got it.

Offline gordo30

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If my theory is correct and the t-shirt belonged to the killer it leaves the possibility that other items were to.

This would explain a lot.

Definitely explain.
1. The change in description from the initial blue jeans/blue hoodie to the clothes found at the crime scene.
2. Why the bra was not contaminated by Jodis blood.
3. Why no one was ever seen covered in blood from the crime scene.
4. The over emphasis on the borrowing of clothes between siblings.
5. The DNA samples of blood and semen from an identified male.
6. The t-shirt not being cut at the arms to allow removal.
7. The lack of blood on the torso if the killer realised that had the victim worn the t-shirt then front and back would be covered in blood so possibly used the t-shirt to clean the body.

Potentially explain.
1. Why AW took to washing the day after her granddaughter was murdered and some of those clothes that were washed belonged to Jodi .
2. Why Jodi was intent on seeing Luke earlier than was their normal routine.
3. Why all the clothes at the crime scene appear to be linked by singular sperm cells.
4.

Loosely explain.
1. If there was a clear and present danger to Jodi could stocky man have been sent to protect Jody and not as thought be a threat to her.

Can anyone add to this?

Offline nugnug

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what was the normal time for Jodi and luke to meet