Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 1055631 times)

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Offline nugnug

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from what i rember the paholgist couldent give a time of death even a guess its much to harder
 detrimine than is comonely thought.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:14:PM by nugnug »

Offline gordo30

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I don't think I realised just how important the management of the crime scene was as no pathologist would have put his name to a time of death under the circumstances.

Body temperature having the body lying in the open for so long left a large margin for a safe time although possible the extent of the differential would be futile.

Forensic entomology is 90% crime scene assessed and the removal of the body to a plastic sheet meant it was impossible to establish anywhere near a credible time, although again any eggs could have been incubated and brought to a condition where there could be a relative time of death ascertained.

Rigor would prove accurate but with out the other variables to back it up no pathologist would allow themselves to be put on the spot to determine a time.

We all know the crime scene management was a joke but to me it was criminal , all other aspects of that evening upon discovery if the body were perfect to establish tod and were lost .
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 04:37:PM by gordo30 »

Offline nugnug

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rigour can take place in 5 minutes or 12 hours so its hard to setermine from that alone.

stomache contents isnt reliable on its own ethere.


ithink the flys and magots are probelythe most relaible but even that can vary.

jodie could of died at more or less anytime bettween her last being seenn and the body being found.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 03:19:PM by nugnug »

Offline notsure

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We all know the crime scene management was a joke but to me it was criminal

Well said, what were the police thinking leaving that poor girl out all night. They should hang thier heads in shame.

This whole saga is a mess. Once again a theory is believed by the jury. I keep on saying it but its who tells the best story at the time!!

Offline sandra L

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Forensic entomology is 90% crime scene assessed and the removal of the body to a plastic sheet meant it was impossible to establish anywhere near a credible time, although again any eggs could have been incubated and brought to a condition where there could be a relative time of death ascertained.

No soil samples appear to have been taken from the area at the bottom of the wall (where it is claimed Jodi's throat was cut), or from under where her body was found - again, absolutely criminal, since insects/eggs in blood soaked soil could also have yielded critical evidence.

This, however, raises another question for me. I do not believe that the "blood spray" discovered low down on the wall is, in fact, arterial spray from a cut-throat injury. Without being too graphic, there is not enough of it, and it is far too finely misted to have been deposited with the force arterial spray would involve.

Other bloodstains raise further questions - the branch found several meters (sorry, I don't remember exactly how many) beyond Jodi's body, towards Newbattle which, it was claimed, could have been used to strike Jodi, but had characteristics of having been moved after the blood was deposited on it - was this branch used to strike Jodi beyond the point where she was found? (The prosecution claim has always been that she went over the V break in the wall, and all of her injuries occurred between there and the point, 16.3 metres west, where her body was found.)

A poster on one of the newspaper sites, claiming to be a relative, made reference to a branch being found in the wasteland at the Easthouses end, in the entrance to the path area. Was this a case of mistaken labelling, or did the attack on Jodi begin before the junction of the paths, and before the V point, and carry on well beyond the point where Jodi's body was found? If that is the case, and Jodi's throat was not cut at the wall, the prosecution case of an argument gone wrong begins to fall apart (inasmuch as it ever held together) - in this new potential scenario, Jodi was hunted for an extended period of time in that woodland strip.

The horrific defence injuries to her arms were, according to the pathologist her final, desperate attempts to fight for her life - his point was that they were "peri-mortem" - at or near the time of death. Had these been before her throat was cut, they would have bled profusely - if they were inflicted as the cut throat injuries were being inflicted, they would not, as the rapid blood loss from the cut-throat injuries would very quickly reduce the amount of blood, and the pressure of it, circulating in her body. Does the pathologist reference to them as "peri-mortem"  suggest the latter? If so, does that cast doubt on the prosecution claim that her throat was cut from behind - was she actually facing her attacker, trying to shield herself from a bladed attack to her neck, with her arms?  The other injuries - the extensive bruising to her face, head and hands, the potential teeth marks on her hand, the clumps of hair pulled out by the roots, the non-fatal strangling (either manual or by ligature) all point to a prolonged attack. The distance from the body of the lens from one side of her glasses and the bra strap, along with blood stains found in other parts of the woodland strip point to an attack which was moving from place to place (i.e. did not all happen in the small area claimed by the prosecution).


Offline gordo30

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its one of those aspects you dont want to think about just how long jodi had to endure before death took her from that horrendous time.

personally im trying to take this from the start and i really dont think jodi was heading at that point to meet luke, again we have a problem with calls and not knowing what they contained.

we have no sighting of jodi on any of ther paths heading towards Newbattle but sightings of her heading there, nothing to establish time of death but i do remember the toxicology reports saying she had smoked canabis around the time she was reported to have left home or later was that right?

Offline gordo30

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The nature of the wounds meant that the attack was prolonged but just how long is anyone's guess, branch close to the crime scene could have been a branch cut down to aid photographers and somehow been discarded or lost in another section , the branch at the clearing remember wasn't this the place where Luke had claimed he and Jodi did spend time over the months they were together and the one place he knew about?
I also feel that if true the possibility that the killer had left it there on his way back to easthouses is a very real possibility.

One big problem with a prolonged attack is th lack  of noise, Jodi fought her attacker and fought for her life wouldn't she have screamed for it also! The lack of any credible witnesses to noise from any area that night is really strange, if the crime was later than 5:15 were getting to the time when dog owners were taking their dogs for their last evening walk someone had to have heard something
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 01:42:PM by gordo30 »

Offline gordo30

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If the attack happened so early on as she entered the path why would she run further into the woodland area when she was so close to safety going the other way, this wasn't a wood but a woodland area that was mature the opportunity for any attack being witnesses was very real and the woodland area wasn't wide enough for Jodi to let's say run and hide

Offline nugnug

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If the attack happened so early on as she entered the path why would she run further into the woodland area when she was so close to safety going the other way, this wasn't a wood but a woodland area that was mature the opportunity for any attack being witnesses was very real and the woodland area wasn't wide enough for Jodi to let's say run and hide

thats a bloody good point.

Offline sandra L

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the branch at the clearing remember wasn't this the place where Luke had claimed he and Jodi did spend time over the months they were together and the one place he knew about?
I also feel that if true the possibility that the killer had left it there on his way back to easthouses is a very real possibility

Sorry, should have been clearer about this. The clearing you speak of here is the one at the large, top to bottom break in the wall at the junction of the paths. The area where the branch was claimed to have been found is before this - the entrance to the path, or rather to the junction of the paths, was bordered on the right hand side by rough waste ground (it's now a housing estate) - it's in this waste ground that the blood stained branch was claimed to have been found, before Jodi had even reached the beginning of Roan's Dyke path. Hope that makes sense.

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If the attack happened so early on as she entered the path why would she run further into the woodland area when she was so close to safety going the other way, this wasn't a wood but a woodland area that was mature the opportunity for any attack being witnesses was very real and the woodland area wasn't wide enough for Jodi to let's say run and hide[/uote]

Apologies again - I forget that not everyone is as familiar with the area as I am. If the attack began on the entrance to the path, before the big break in the wall at the very top of Roan's Dyke path, where it joined Lady path, Jodi could not have run back along the entrance track to the main road, because the attacker was behind her. She would have had three options - try to outrun him down Roan's Dyke path (it's a long run for a young lady who wasn't very athletic), try to outrun him along Lady Path (a shorter run, but still a long run) of the third option, which only a local would know about.

Jodi could have run into the woodland strip through the big break in the wall. Here, she would have had two choices - turn left and try to make her way to Newbattle behind the wall, or run straight ahead along a track through the woodland that would bring her out at the back of the Easthouses estate.

If you imagine a letter T, the "leg" of the T is Roan's Dyke path. The right-hand portion of the top line (as we look at it here) is Lady Path, the left hand portion, through the break in the wall, is the track leading to the back of the Easthouses estate. If you extend the leg of the T upwards, you get a plus sign + - the bit you've just extended is the entrance to the path area, where the branch is claimed to have been found.

I would reckon, if Jodi was attacked prior to the junction of the paths, her instinct would be to try to get home - it was the nearest place of safety for her. The only way to get there, with the attacker cutting off the route she had just come, would have been the track through the woodland strip.

If her attacker was local, he, too, might have known about the track - he could, for example, have cut across the waste ground and cut Jodi off on the track before she got to the back of the Easthouses estate, forcing her back into the woodland strip to escape him. Confusingly, there is also a wall running along the side of this track, but there were at least three breaks in it - two opening onto the wasteland itself towards Easthouses, the third opening onto the back of the estate.

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this wasn't a wood but a woodland area that was mature the opportunity for any attack being witnesses was very real and the woodland area wasn't wide enough for Jodi to let's say run and hide

I agree - the possibility of the attack being witnessed on the entrance to the path, Roan's Dyke path, or in the woodland strip was extremely high for any of these places. Also, the cyclist who heard a noise when he was cycling up Roan's Dyke path (between 5 and 5.30, from memory) heard what he believed were kids playing in the woodland strip. Those kids were found and interviewed - they were, indeed, playing the woodland strip behind the wall at around that time. A couple of dog walkers reached the junction of the paths in the same time period, but decided not to take their usual walk through the woodland strip because the dogs had already had a long run earlier in the day. Crucially, if Jodi was, indeed, at the junction of the paths or on her way down Roan's Dyke path, these dog walkers would have seen her. They didn't see anybody, and didn't hear anything untoward. (The moped, silent by 5.15pm would have been too far down the path for them to have seen it from the junction of the paths.)

I also don't believe the attack took place in silence, all of which, for me, suggests the attack did not take place behind the wall between approximately 5.10 and 5.15pm (the time it would have taken Jodi to get there from the AB "Sighting").

There was a report of a scream later in the evening - around 8 or 8.30pm, from a witness in perhaps the closest proximity to the path, without actually being on it. Again, that report was simply noted - I've never seen anything suggesting that others were asked if they heard anything similar.

Coincidentally, this was around the time DD and his dogs were in the woodland strip, according to one account (before the waters got extremely muddy and nobody could remember anything about where they were or when.



Offline gordo30

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Wow 8 pm was roughly the time I was thinking for Jodi making her way towards Lukes, still early enough for her to see him before getting home before curfew and after the timing of JF being there. I can't help feeling that Jodi had stumbled upon something and someone she knew on her way to Luke's when she decided to make her way there. She wasn't going there at 5 but later on, it's where was she and what was she doing that's the problem and the DNA available is speaking volumes I just don't know what the hell its saying

Offline sandra L

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we have no sighting of jodi on any of ther paths heading towards Newbattle but sightings of her heading there, nothing to establish time of death but i do remember the toxicology reports saying she had smoked canabis around the time she was reported to have left home or later was that right?

Yes, from memory, within two to two and a half hours before she died. Since we know she was in school until 3.30, so in reality, there's only an hour and a quarter of this time period in which Jodi could actually have smoked - it's possible she smoked cannabis before getting on the bus home - she couldn't have smoked on the bus - between getting off the bus and walking home (a very short distance as you can see from streetmaps, at home (where it was claimed she was for approximately one hour), or between the sighting by AB and when she died.

Critical to all of this is her other's statement that Jodi did not smoke in the house.

Offline gordo30

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Once again it ties in with a possible 8 pm time of the murder if she did indeed walk to somewhere else maybe to have a smoke around the 5:30 /6:00 then leave around 7:30 pm to walk to Luke's. is there any possible sightings around this time

Offline nugnug

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if she had been killed around 5 pm or so i find it hard to beleve then body would of stayed undiscovered that long i mean a fair number of people used that path and the amount of blood around the scene someone walking up there in daylight would find it hard not to notice.

and theres all the people who used to walk there dogs down there im sure the dogs would of smelt somthing.

Offline gordo30

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If DD was indeed walking his dogs in the woodland strip we have had dogs abuse (pun intended) about why Mia hadn't detected the body on the way up as dogs react to these things so why didn't DD's dogs not do the same thing , is this another reason that the body wasn't there at that time or simply that it had just been around this time that death occurred