The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003

[sandra L]

Apologies, full match with Falconer, my error, I've amended the previous post.

Source of other comment - police statement.

[gordo30]

The police always maintained the time of death to be around 17:15 and at the time of trial it was hard to refute, Jodi was seen heading towards the entrance to a series of paths that led from easthouses to newbattle and would have been at the place she was found about 7/8 mins from that entrance. The fact that there appears to have been no other sightings of Jodi afterwards leads investigators to believe she did indeed meet her death early on. It becomes far more plausible that she didn't meet her death that early from events afterwards mainly the connection of James falconer to the case, he maintains he was in the area at around 19,15 doing what we all know he did and his story seems to have been believed by investigators completely except we know by his statements of events that night he would have had to have stepped over the body on his way to and back from that area. This leads us to perceive that possibly Jodi wasn't there and not dead at this time, where was she and why no sightings?
This case has been beset by the lack of sightings and witnesses mainly because so many of the people involved were of such a close connection to the victim and each other. There are instances of credible witnesses being cajoled into changing testimonies as well as simply not followed up.
I think when all the pieces are put together then a better picture emerges and the truth comes out.
We have many samples of DNA in this case and many unexplained anomalies that have had me baffled but now and again something comes along and things fall into place.
The t-shirt Jodi wore had many samples of both seamen and blood on it but a long with singular sperm heads at different concentration levels from a single one to 4/5/6 together on a certain portion of the t-shirt.
These single sperm  heads prove a problem , how did they get there, why were they still prevalent at the time of death and why have they been over looked by the investigating authorities.sperm heads in their natural state are preserved by seminal fluid from a male, when that fluid breaks down by means of natural degradation of the fluid or by means of washing with a strong detergent make them very volatile to being broken down and they tend not to be attached to clothing or the body, they are very easily detached from outside garments such is the reason why every murder case does not involve them, we have a case where their concentration has to be looked at. In what environment would we expect singular spermheads to be present? Well this leads me on to a case in the US where a jogger was found murdered and singular sperm heads were found on the vest she wore , no sexual activity had occurred but their presence was investigated. It was found that the woman had been in her lovers bed where an argument ensued and she had left .
The bed is the perfect environment for dead singular sperm to exist and sweat on the vest made the sperm  stick to the top.
Was Jodi in bed with someone prior to her murder? There are a few things that might account for the lack of sightings if she had indeed been with another man then the clothes she chose to wear would have been perfect the black baggy cords and hoodie would have helped conceal her movements and when we know the original description being blue hoodie and light blue jeans then it would have been harder to remember seeing someone with an opposite description . I also wonder where else Jodi could have ventured to, the road towards the entrance to the paths heading to newbattle may have led elsewhere, was it a thoroughfare to many different estates, was she heading somewhere else and not to the paths, was this the reason why stocky man was following her and had waited for her to leave the other place and again follow her to Luke's at a later time where he saw the chance to murder her at a later time and at the place we know she was found

[nugnug]

gordo nice to see you agian..

[gordo30]

Hi mate.

It looks from google maps that walking from parkhead place to the entrance to the paths could also be a way to mayfield can anyone confirm

[sandra L]

Jodi was never claimed to have been seen in the entrance to the path, only on the pavement in front of the entrance. If she had, in fact, walked a few yards past the entrance and crossed the road, she would have been able to take the exact route to Mayfield that it is claimed the family search trio took (in the opposite direction, obviously) later that night.

That route was also secluded and isolated to a fair degree; both entered and exited by paths through woodland, and including playing fields and some open ground all surrounded and shielded from view by trees.

Strangely, the search trio did not look for Jodi on that part of their journey later that night, even though they were told Jodi was supposed to be hanging around "up here" - her mother explained to police that "up here" meant Easthouses/Mayfield (rather than Newbattle, where Luke lived), and said when Jodi and Luke were hanging out "up here" they would often meet "at the school" (not at the junction of the paths) and walk up to Mayfield, where Jodi's Gran lived, together.

Stranger still, the police investigation never looked at the Mayfield route, except to attempt to confirm the timings of the search trio's journey.

Jodi's Gran later claimed that the reason they went straight to Roan's Dyke path, without looking anywhere else at all (including the entrance to the path, and the waste ground to the right of the entrance) was because she thought Jodi could be lying somewhere on the path, hurt.

But how could anyone have known at that point which direction Jodi took that night? She wasn't believed to be going to Luke's house, the search trio were told Jodi was expected to be hanging around "up here" - how could they have known she wasn't lying somewhere on the route to Mayfield, hurt? In fact, given their knowledge about where Jodi was supposed to be that evening, why did they consider looking at the path at all? Their areas of concern should have been Mayfield/Easthouses, and the route in between the two that Jodi was known to take.

Jodi's mother also told police that sometimes, when they were hanging around "up here" they went to Scotts caravans. The search trio also walked straight past there without looking.

(Interestingly, in the same way the family claimed Jodi was "not allowed" to use the Roan's Dyke route as a short cut, they claimed she was also "not allowed" to take the Mayfield route I'm discussing here. On both points, they conceded that everyone knew perfectly well that Jodi used both routes on her own.)

If you enter "Easthouses Road" into google earth, you will see "Mayfield/Easthouses Complex Pavilion - that is where this route is entered/exited for the Mayfield route. Pan South East and you will see the Shell Petrol Station and Scott's Caravans - you can see where the path enters the woodland at the back of the Shell Station - this is the other end of the entrance/exit to the Mayfield route. Pan slightly south east again (just across the road) and you will see the houses where the family search trio left from that night (the houses in the lighter section, where it says "St Luke's Way" were not built at the time).

[sandra L]

I also wonder where else Jodi could have ventured to, the road towards the entrance to the paths heading to newbattle may have led elsewhere, was it a thoroughfare to many different estates, was she heading somewhere else and not to the paths, was this the reason why stocky man was following her and had waited for her to leave the other place and again follow her to Luke's at a later time where he saw the chance to murder her at a later time and at the place we know she was found

The sighting/description of the girl and the youth given by AB is not credible and, in my opinion, the mistaken description of clothes, etc, coupled with the early pictures of Jodi aged five and eight, seriously hampered the search for witnesses who may have seen Jodi.

The police could easily have questioned Stocky Man - he was identified to them by a witness within 9 weeks of the murder.

Places Jodi could have gone? A lot depends on the time she actually left her home. If it was much earlier than 5pm (and there is some evidence that this may, in fact, have been the case - her mother telling her to "be quiet," "shoo," and "go out" appears to have happened shortly after she came in from school. What reason could there have been for her mother apparently trying to keep her quiet and get her out of the house so soon after arriving, especially since Jodi was supposed to be grounded?) If she left then, she would have been far too early to meet Luke, so may have headed towards her Gran's to kill time.

DG and JF were well known to her, but there is nothing to suggest she would have gone to GD's house to kill time - by 4.38, she and Luke had exchanged texts, and the arrangement had been made to meet in Newbattle "later." The texts were never recovered, either from Luke's phone records or Jodi's mother's.

Jodi was known to have met JF before to pick up cannabis - JF and GD were messing around on the moped from around 4.20 to 5.15pm - their bike was propped, riderless against the wall at the V break at 5.15, but they couldn't say where they were. There has never been any confirmation of what time they moved the bike from the wall and returned to GD's house (the back garden of which opens onto Lady Path, which joins Roan's Dyke path at right angles at the junction of the path.)

I'm not saying JF, GD or anyone else had anything to do with what happened to Jodi - what I am saying is that the police investigation was shockingly bad, when you realise that thirteen and a half years later, these questions still remain unanswered.

The road on which Jodi was walking is a fairly busy road - from there she could have taken the Mayfield route I described earlier, or walked towards Newtongrange (but there is nothing to suggest she had any connection with/reason to go to Newtongrange.) This route could also have taken her on a circuitous route either to Mayfield or Newtongrange, but that's about it - it's not a route that gives access to a large number of places

[gordo30]

If we take the witness who identified the stocky man and assuming her testimony was correct and she did indeed see that man at Jodi's funeral would Jodi not have been aware of him following her?  Would he frighten Jodi enough for her to go somewhere else from her original destination. Did she go to someone else's house that was closer . It would have been a while before she reached her destination could she have been followed on that road without her knowing?

[sandra L]

The walk from Jodi's house to the entrance of the path was timed at 2 mins 40 seconds - possibly not long enough for her to realise she was being followed? Interestingly, there are two routes from Jodi's house to the main Easthouses road, so it's possible she would only have become aware of being followed (if she did become aware) once she was on the main road - that narrows the time down to 2 minutes, from when she reached the Easthouses Road to the entrance to the path. The witnesses who saw Stocky Man must have seen him within the first minute, given where on the road they saw him.

The problem with the identification of Stocky Man and AB's sighting is that both can't be correct. How could Jodi be at the entrance to the path between 4.49 and 4.54 having the possible altercation with Shaggy from Skooby Doo if she wasn't even on the Easthouses Road until 12 minutes later when she was seen being followed by Stocky Man?

Where would she have gone for sanctuary? Apart from GD (which would have still been quite a way to go from the entrance to the path, and an unlikely place for her to go) she didn't have other friends whose homes she frequented in the immediate area at that time.

There was, however, a "hideaway" under the road, accessed from the complex area - if she had been able to slip Stocky Man for just a moment or so, she could have ducked in there and would, to all intents and purposes, have "disappeared." But, and this is a big but, this would be based on the assumption that Stocky Man knew nothing about the hideaway. It is known that his closest friend at the time knew about it.

If Stocky Man sighting is correct (whether or not the identification is), Jodi did not leave her home at 4.50 (to be at the entrance to the path by 4.49 to fit with the AB sighting). If she did not leave her home at 4.50, but instead left after 5pm, she could not have been murdered at 5.15 and, because of all the other timings, Luke could not have been the killer.

It wouldn't have been "a while" before she reached her destination if, by destination, you mean the entrance to the path. Could she have been followed through the entrance to the path, and onto the path without her knowing? Possibly - at that time of the year, maybe even probably, since there were dog walkers, etc, about.

However, if Stocky Man did follow Jodi onto the path without her knowing, he was taking one hell of a risk trying to attack her on an open path and bundle her through a break in the wall. There are a couple of other possibilities - a person following Jodi along the entrance to the path could have ducked behind the big break in the wall at the junction of the paths, made his way down behind the wall, and been waiting for her at the V break. She would not, in those circumstances, have known she was being "followed." Or, on the other hand, she may have become afraid that she was being followed, and ducked out of sight behind the same break in the wall, her follower carrying on down the path before realising he had lost her, and climbing over the V break to see if she was hiding in the woodland strip.

[gordo30]

if we assume that jodi wasnt heading to the paths at all but elsewhere what are the possible destinations she could have been heading to going in that direction.

given the identity oif the stocky man surely she must have been aware that he was there if not just to wonder where he was going

[sandra L]

if we assume that jodi wasnt heading to the paths at all but elsewhere what are the possible destinations she could have been heading to going in that direction.

Mayfield, via the route I explained earlier, Mayfield by the circuitous route, the takeaway at the end of the Easthouses Road (unlikely - the family used the takeaway in the centre of the Easthouses road and often had their food delivered), Newtongrange, or Newbattle by the circuitous route. She could have cut through the street where GD lived on the circuitous route to Newbattle, or gone through the school grounds and across the school playing fields towards where GD lived - in short, the only person she is believed to have known in that direction is GD and there is nothing of any substance to suggest she would have planned to go to GD's house. If she was heading towards Mayfield, she generally took the route through the complex - she would have gone to her Gran's or her cousin YW's flat, just across the road from her Gran's, where JF said he was when he saw the search trio leaving to look for Jodi.

given the identity oif the stocky man surely she must have been aware that he was there if not just to wonder where he was going

Firstly, it's a claimed identity, and that's as far, I think, as we can go definitively with that. Secondly, (and I recommend Google streetview, Parkhead Place for this next bit) he was behind her - if she had come up onto the main Easthouses road at the junction with Maryburn Road, and her follower had not wanted her to know he was following, he could have gone up the first set of steps onto the Easthouses Road, emerging behind her without her knowing he was there. It's a busy road at that time of the evening - I don't imagine she would have heard someone walking in trainers behind her over the noise of the traffic - unless she'd specifically looked behind, she would have had no reason to know there was anyone behind her, "following" or not.

If Stocky Man had, for example, said he was going to the takeaway for food, he would have headed for the top set of steps onto the Easthouses Road, as those are the nearest steps to the takeaway. From that point, Jodi emerging onto the Easthouses Road further down, either at the second set of steps, or the junction with Maryburn Road, would have been in clear view. One of the witnesses said Stocky Man was just before the bus stop (presumably the one on the same side of the road as Jodi and Stocky Man)- for that to be the case, he had to have been on the Easthouses Road prior to the bus stop.

Witness statements purportedly outlining Jodi's movements that night claimed she must have gone up the second set of steps, or onto the Maryburn junction because she "didn't pass the window" of her house. That always struck me as strange - what reason would Jodi have had to walk in the opposite direction to where it was claimed she was headed (passing the window of her house would have meant she had to turn left, leaving her garden). Even if it had been claimed that Jodi was believed to be heading for Woodburn that night (which was never claimed, but just for completion), she still would not have "passed the window" - she would have turned right, up the steps (2nd set), and waited for the bus at the same bus stop Stocky Man was seen following her.

Bottom line, whether she was going to YW's, her Gran's, Luke's or Woodburn there would have been no reason for her to "pass the window" - so why did the witnesses make such a big deal about that?

[marty]

I thought that stocky man had never been identified. I thought that the person who was identified at the funeral had turned out that it couldn't have been him so he had never been identified?

[sandra L]

I think you may be mixing up two separate stories about Stocky Man, Marty.

On the day of the reconstruction of Jodi's last known movements, a week after the murder, one of the witnesses who had seen Stocky Man the previous week thought he saw him again in the crowd at the reconstruction. It turned out he was mistaken - the man he thought was Stocky Man had just returned from England and had a cast iron alibi for the previous Monday.

The identification of Stocky Man we're discussing here was never made public, and never, to my knowledge, followed up by police investigators. It was discovered by the SCCRC investigation, almost 10 years later,  that one of the witnesses to Stocky Man on the day of the murder saw a person on TV on the day of Jodi's funeral, and recognised him as the man she'd seen following Jodi. She returned to the police with this information, but no further action was taken on her up-dated statement.

[nugnug]

she wasnt the slightest bit bothered by the fact this man was walking behing her that sort of leads me to suspect she knew him.

[sandra L]

She may well have done, nugnug, and they may both have started out on their respective journeys on the same bit of road, one going one way, one going another further on.

But if that was the case, why did he never come forward? He would have been the very last person to have seen Jodi alive (apart from her killer). In fact, even though he remains (officially) unidentified, according to the evidence, he is the last known person to have seen Jodi alive, and that was 5.05pm, not 4.49-4.54

These were solid witness statements, unlike the bizarrely manipulated statements of AB - why didn't the police make more of an effort to properly track him down? And why, when they were given a possible identification (the witness may of course, have been mistaken, just like the witness at the reconstruction was mistaken), did they not follow up to find out if there was any possibility that her identification was not mistaken?

They did so with the man at the reconstruction, which is why he was eliminated as Stocky Man. However, this is another example of the double standards in this case - they accepted "positive" identifications of Luke from descriptions which were so far removed from Luke as to be almost laughable, but when a witness for the "other side" of their argument comes along and says quite positively - "That is the man I saw following Jodi," they dismiss her without a second thought?

[gordo30]

Reading through this thread again to catch up a bit I saw you list the police failings and one you said they failed to take the body temperature, I remember discussing this years ago and I always thought they had but said it was inconclusive because of the environment that night.

Do you remember how soon the autopsy took place after jodi was found?
Rigor mortis is always established at autopsy and is accurate up to 30 hours or so afterwards.

Was there any entomology assessment done also?