Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 1055592 times)

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Offline sandra L

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First off, how could Luke have planned to "find the body with the family" when he didn't know he was going to meet the family en route? When the family couldn't explain to anyone - even Judith herself- that they were heading straight to the path?

Judith said, in her statements, she had no idea why they headed to the path, or how they "all met up." She had no idea prior to 11.18 where the trio were searching or intending to search. Luke left his home at 10.50. There were no calls to Luke from anyone other than Judith, so how could he know he would meet family members to carry out his "cunning plan?"

There were various reports from "dog experts" involving smoke bombs (to "visualise" where scent would have been carried by the wind), a couple of police dog handlers who carried out a "test" with one of them hiding behind the wall and the other walking the dog up the path - they claimed the dog walked straight past the hiding officer, proving therefore, that Mia would not have reacted. (Or proving the god wasn't trained, or proving it was given an instruction to walk on without reacting, since there was no-one else there to veryiify their "aaccount?" Imagine taking that dog to the scene of a natural disaster to find dead or injured people - sorry, folks, he only reacts to things he can actually see!

I don't remember all of the reports, but they were all inconclusive - from memory, there was some prosecution evidence presented at trial, but it was very weak, and quickly discredited. The defence report did state that while not at "expert" level, Mia had clearly had some tracker training, and reacted to tracking commands as would be expected of any dog trained to that level.

Luke asked for something of Jodi's for Mia to scent (don't take my word for it, Alice, Kelly and Janine all said he did) - Alice said it was "too far" to go back for something - a whole 2 minute 40 second walk.) He told the police that Mia was "highly excited" going up the path - he put it down to her getting an unexpected extra walk. he said she was pulling hard the whole time and "jumping about" - i.e. being an excitable dog (which I can attest, she was.) He said Mia coud have "reacted" on the way up, but he would just have pulled her away, assuming it to be partof her excitement - without putting her into tracking mode, he wouldn't have been looking for a tracking "signal" from the dog.

The "seek Jodi, find Jodi" command is one that was used in her training - Luke would hide, and Corinne would say "Seek Luke, find Luke, Luke's hiding," or the trainer would hide, and Luke would give the same commands using the trainer's name, and so on, so it was a command with which she was very familiar.

Offline sandra L

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I'm curious as to why Luke would ignore the dogs reaction on the way up, or indeed wait until meeting the search party before putting her in tracker mode.

No not "that he would ignore the dog's reaction" - he interpreted the dog's behaviour as her simply being excited.

He put her into tracker mode after Alice suggested they "double check" - i.e conduct a second check in case Luke had somehow missed Jodi on the way up. Putting the dog in tracker mode would have widened the area able to be searched because the dog could smell farther than the humans could see.

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He was looking for Jodi from the second he left the house with a torch. He originally stated that he set up the path to look for her, and only if he couldn't find Jodi would he head to the Jones household, so why no "seek Jodi, find Jodi"  before stepping foot on the path to look for her with the dog?

He was 14 years old, it was dark, he set off very quickly after Judith's call - by that stage, like the others, he was obviously worried but, like the others, not thinking "the worst." He probably thought, on the way up, there was no need to put Mia in tracker mode (if he thought about it at all - he took the dog for his own protection as it was late and dark).

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Instead he ignores the dogs unusual behaviour

No, please read my last post - not unusual behviour at all, excitable behaviour from an excitable dog who was very happy to be getting an extra walk

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, heads straight for the Jones household where he is met by the search party

no, he arranged with Judy to make his way to the Jones house if he didn't find Jodi on the way - he wasn't met there by the search perty, he was intercepted by the search party before he got to the house

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who had made their own way to the path

Might want to decide which it was - either they met him at the Jones house, or they met him at the path?

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and makes a point to ask them for an item of Jodi's clothing for Mia to smell (even though she doesn't need this to track Jodi and hasn't been trained this way) just to make it clear he's about to put Mia into tracking mode.  ::)

No, she didn't need an item of Jodi's to scent - playing the "seek/find" game (as she would understand it) meant she would have sought a scent of someone or something she recognised who/which was not in view. But your assertion
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and hasn't been trained his way
is wrong. The command for a specific scent from an article would have been a different command, (for which the dog had also been trained) and would have set the dog sniffing for a particular, more specific scent. Why did Luke suggest this? I don't know - because he could? Because Alice suggested a double check of a path he'd only just checked which would have been a bit of a waste of time unless there'd been something added to the search (i.e. something other than four of them looking at the same empty path Luke had just traversed). Because the situation had changed, since it was now clear that Jodi was not anywhere on the path, nor was she anywhere else that any of her family knew of - after all, it was Alice who suggested they go back down the path.

If Luke had planned the "finding Jodi with the family" scenario, he left a heck of a lot to chance - firstly, he couldn't know he would meet family members on the way, secondly, he could not possiby have known Alice would suggest they go back down the path - what if she'd accepted Luke's account that he hadn't seen Jodi, and ordered the lot of them, quick smart, to Judith's house to talk to the police? No chance Luke couldd have "led them to the body" then, was there?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 08:49:PM by sandra L »

Offline sandra L

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where he was met by = the place he was met by = the Jones household, according to your previous post - the addition of "who had made their own way to the path" was confusing and misleading, but all of this is of little relevance.

You haven't answered how Luke could have masterminded his plan to be with the family when Jodi's body was found, when he had no way of knowing he would meet up with family members on his way to Easthouses, and even if he did, would have to come up with a clever way of getting them to go back down the path (which, as it turns out, was taken care of for him by Alice so conveniently suggesting they go back down the path to double check.)

You've made no comment on the fact that Mia was trained in a number of tracking "disciplines," in spite of your previous claims that she wasnt "trained in [this]way"

And, for what it's worth, we've all been 14 (referring to your post today at 3.46pm (I don't know how to do the post number thing)

John

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What a lot of crap

No, the crap is your belief that Mitchell is innocent actually.

John

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The dog wasn't looking for jodi on the way up the path. The dog was looking for jodi on the way down the path when it had been told to..
Do you think a dog reacts every time it recognises a scent, it may well have recognised the scent but as far as it was concerned it was out for a walk, nothing more.

The dog wasn't looking for anyone period.  The dog scented cadaverine which would have put her at some unease, she would have reacted exactly the same on the first pass.

Luke Mitchell wasn't to know where he would meet Alice, Janine and Stephen but he made damn sure that he wasn't alone when he found Jodi regardless.  Had he been the sweet innocent lad that Sandra Lean would have us believe then he would have followed Mia to the body on the very first pass. 
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:16:AM by John »

John

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If Luke had planned the "finding Jodi with the family" scenario, he left a heck of a lot to chance - firstly, he couldn't know he would meet family members on the way, secondly, he could not possiby have known Alice would suggest they go back down the path - what if she'd accepted Luke's account that he hadn't seen Jodi, and ordered the lot of them, quick smart, to Judith's house to talk to the police? No chance Luke couldd have "led them to the body" then, was there?

It didn't matter one iota where he met them but when Alice Walker decided that they would recheck the path then Mia's reaction to the cadaverine originating from Jodi's remains couldn't be hidden and he had to go along with him finding the body.  No doubt his masterplan involved someone else discovering the body while he was back home safetly tucked up in bed and had Alice not insisted in rechecking the path then that was what would have happened.

No wonder Jodi's relatives were suspicious of Luke Mitchell when he had effectively walked past Jodi's body but conveniently was able to find it when accompanied by them.  Bad timing for him really.  Just like when the two ladies saw him after he crossed the road just minutes after Jodi had been murdered.  Bad luck there too!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 02:28:AM by John »

Offline sandra L

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I see, so Luke actually came up with the cunning plot not to be the one who found the body alone at precisely the point where Alice suggested they double check? Isn't that a different argument to the one we've already spent so much time on? And how does this new one work?

Surely the best way to avoid being the one to find the body alone would have been to not go out looking at all - he was 14 years old, it was coming up to 11pm - his mum could have put the foot down and said, "No way - Judith's called the police, they'll know what to do. You're not going out there on your own at this time of night."

He could have chosen not to put the dog in tracker mode and then, as Findlay pointed out, they would all have "walked right past" Jodi's body - as Mia was so excitable, the family wouldn't have known if she'd "reacted" to something.

"Safely tucked up in bed?" This lad's got superpowers! He didn't know he was going to meet the family en route, so he was heading for Judith's house. how could he (a) have known how long he would be there and (b) when Jodi's body would be found?

Offline marty

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Mia never smelled Jodi she smelled her clothes that were scattered around the scene, despite the unwashed shirt being Janine's. Oh deary me.

Mia detected the clothes, not blood. Despite the clothes being covered in blood...
That's how trackers work

Offline marty

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The dog wasn't looking for anyone period.  The dog scented cadaverine which would have put her at some unease, she would have reacted exactly the same on the first pass.

Luke Mitchell wasn't to know where he would meet Alice, Janine and Stephen but he made damn sure that he wasn't alone when he found Jodi regardless.  Had he been the sweet innocent lad that Sandra Lean would have us believe then he would have followed Mia to the body on the very first pass.

He also wasn't to know they were going back down the path

Offline marty

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I've been 14. It wouldn't take a boy genius to realise finding a body would immediately point fingers at you. I'd probably have had the same idea as LM.

What age were Venables and Thompson when they had the idea of disguising their crime as a train accident?

And what's pathetic about that? Your comment about a dog smelling biscuits was irrelevant and contradictory when you were arguing the point that Mia wouldn't have detected a familiar scent behind a 6ft wall on the way up the path.

But we are going round in circles and my suspicion regarding Mia apparently only detecting the scent on the way back won't shift so yea we can end it here.

No silly , my comment about biscuits was that dogs react to what they see as potential food ie dead animals. That's why you find it so hard to get your dog to pass a dead animal. 1 it's an animal smell so that fascinates them. 2 . Potential food source . The point I made was your dog would pull you to one side if it smelled something like biscuits cos it's a food source and dogs are scavengers. Read it again. Everything I said was correct as you will have read.

Offline marty

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Why?

Changed your mind? You said in a previous post that's how it worked.

Offline Baz

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When I'm walking my dog if she smells something and wants to go and investigate, well it's tough because I'm in charge. She's on a lead and she goes where I go. So if I'm in a hurry to get somewhere (as Luke presumably was) she's not going to get a proper chance to try and investigate scents etc and if she does I'm carrying on and therefore so is she.
Then on the return journey Luke has passed control to the dog and is following her instead.

I'm not saying that is definitely what happened as only Luke can know what happened on the journey to meet the search party. But it's really not complicated to understand how either versions could be true.

Offline Baz

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You're right. Alone it isn't compelling enough to suggest guilt or innocence. Wouldn't leave something like that up to a dog's behaviour.

Baz what do you make of Luke telling the police Jodi was wearing a red scrunchie in her hair when she died when this was demonstrably near impossible to see at the murder scene?

It's kind of tough to draw any concrete conclusions from it. The crime scene was so poorly managed, body moved etc. And didn't the grandmother cradle the body, presumably moving it. Over all, it doesn't seem like solid evidence.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:58:PM by Baz »

Offline sandra L

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An interesting article which explains why forensic evidence can be open to the same subjectivity that affects other types of evidence, something I've been banging on about for years.  I have never been able to find out what "instructions" went to the labs, although one report refers to samples belonging to Luke Mitchell and Jodi Jones being the only samples submitted and tested, which is what made me suspect that the forensic testing was not only far from rigorous, but biased from the off.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cr...is-1.2451578#.VmJu5Nz-Abg.twitter



There are few certainties in a criminal trial – witnesses forget, barristers spin and defendants lie. So thank heavens for forensic experts, those objective specialists whose evidence is based in science and presented as irrefutable fact.

What though if the experts are as biased as the rest of us? According to a growing number of studies, forensic evidence is vulnerable to the same subjectivity that plagues other types of evidence such as eye-witness testimony.

Experts in the field of cognitive bias believe forensic scientists are subconsciously influenced by many factors which can affect the decisions they come to and the evidence they give in court. The main problem is that when an examiner receives a piece of evidence, they are also given details about the crime such as how violent it was, whether there were eye-witnesses or if a suspect has confessed.

Such information can subconsciously prejudice even the most experienced of scientists. Facts as basic as which side the evidence comes from, the prosecution or defence, can influence the findings.

Dr Itiel Dror, a cognitive neuroscientist at University College London, was one of the first people to raise the problem 10 years ago. Since then he has worked with forensic labs and police services around the world, including the FBI and London Metropolitan Police, in an effort to mitigate this bias.

“Rather than looking at the evidence alone, forensic scientists are influenced by expectations and information provided by the context of the case which makes them see things differently and not see things at all,” he says. “So really, we’re contaminating their minds and not enabling them to look at the evidence impartially.”

According to Dror, one of the biggest problems is that forensic evidence is usually treated in court as beyond reproach and frequently not even challenged by the defence. It is so powerful it can force defendants to plead guilty in the hope of a lesser sentence, even if they are innocent.
“Often forensic examiners overstate the evidence and they rarely present the limitations and uncertainty.

“Every science has uncertainties, but they forget their role. They think they’re there to help the prosecution or defence, rather than presenting the evidence of what they’ve done, what they know and what they don’t know. Their evidence comes across as impartial, objective and very strong and it’s taken as that by the jury and the judge. The examiners are playing a game which is not scientific, which is actually anti-scientific.”

In one of Dror’s most famous studies, he took sets of fingerprints which had been examined by forensic scientists five years before and found to be matching. He gave the same prints to the same unsuspecting experts and this time told them they needed to examine them because the FBI had mistakenly identified them as matching.

Four out of the five experts changed their previous conclusions and said they did not match. The only thing that changed between the two examinations was the information about the FBI findings and with it the clear suggestion the prints did not match.

Dror and his colleagues have since completed dozens of studies which have enforced the view that seemingly innocent bits of information can have a massive influence on findings, even with those gold standards of forensics, DNA and fingerprinting.Juries are rarely told that matching a crime scene DNA sample often comes down to a judgment call. DNA at crime scenes is frequently mixed together with other people’s biological material, meaning that matching it becomes much more complicated and subjective than matching two pristine lab samples.

The same goes for fingerprints. Pairs of prints taken in the calm surrounds of a police station are easy to compare, but criminals are rarely so obliging. Crime scene prints can differ due to elasticity of the skin, the angle the print is left at and the material it is left on. They can also be smeared or mixed with other prints.

“People say the fingerprint doesn’t lie, I say the fingerprint doesn’t talk,” Dror says. “The problem is prints can be very similar and the examiner has to decide if they’re similar enough to come from the same person. That’s where the subjectivity comes in.”
The most infamous recent example of forensic bias is the case of Brendan Mayfield, an American lawyer who converted to Islam and represented clients accused of terrorism activities.

Following the Madrid train bombings in 2004, the FBI matched prints taken from a bag of detonators found at the scene to those of Mayfield, despite the fact that he hadn’t left the US in over a decade. The prints were even confirmed as a match by an independent examiner. The FBI maintained the prints were a 100 per cent match, right up until the Spanish authorities arrested the real suspect, an Algerian national.
According to Dror, Mayfield is just the tip of the iceberg. “How big it is under the water we don’t know. With the Mayfield example, we only found out about it because of very special circumstances; because the Spanish police found the real man.”

It is a fairly terrifying prospect, but Dror believes there are ways we can stop it happening. First, ensure forensics examiners receive only the information that is absolutely necessary to do their jobs. A forensic case manager can be put in overall charge of the evidence and given all the details. They could direct what work needs to be done and by who without contaminating the examiners.

Second there is linear sequential unmasking (LSU). Dror describes this is a system of examining evidence in the order least likely to cause bias. Instead of examining two samples simultaneously and looking for a match, the examiner looks at the sample from the crime scene, categorises it and then moves on to the suspect’s sample and categorises that. Only then are the two samples compared.

When Dror first started suggesting that forensics were not infallible, he ran into a lot of resistance. One lab director wrote that stripping out the gruesome details of a case would make a forensic examiner’s job too boring. Others sent the doctor hate mail.

So how does Ireland compare? Dr Sheila Willis, the director general of Ireland’s Forensic Science Laboratory, says the laboratory is aware of the issue and some measures are in place to mitigate cognitive bias. “It is a subject that any thinking forensic scientist would have given thought to as they aim to produce objective findings,” she says. “That said, bias is unavoidable and the important thing is to be conscious of it and put measures in place to reduce its effect.”

The lab uses a form of LSU similar to that outlined by Dror. Furthermore, DNA samples are generally produced by one person and examined by another and scientists also cross-check each other’s work.
Willis herself has recently led a Europe-wide initiative to standardise the language used in how forensic examinations are reported to investigation parties. The aim is to make the reports more precise and to allow for uncertainty to be expressed in findings.
Willis believes making examiners work without context could do more harm than good. “In my opinion, it is more dangerous to produce results in a blind fashion without context.”
Blind testing is “science 101”, according to Dror. “This is done in any scientific domain. In the medical domain, we use placebos, for example, because we know people are affected by bias. Except for some reason it has escaped forensic science for a century and now we’re trying to put it in.”

John

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If anything, the limited forensic results gathered from the Jodi Jones murder scene assisted Luke Mitchell's defence so I cannot see why you are complaining about it?  It wasn't the forensic evidence which put Luke away for twenty years but it was the circumstantial evidence.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 02:34:AM by John »