Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 1056041 times)

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Offline nugnug

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    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
well thats what they do when have no real evedence.

Offline sandra L

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Exactly, nugnug - if the "evidence" about the Manson/Dahlia claimed connection wasn't needed, and since it was completely unfounded (no proof that Luke had ever seen the Dahlia paintings, no proof of an "obsession" etc) why on earth was it before the jury at all?

There is supposed to be a rule about the probative value of evidence having to outweigh its prejudicial potential - what happened to that rule in this case? Bottles of urine, stored after the murder (and an innocent explanation for that), a tattoo obtained months after the murder, a cd bought after the murder... none of that could prove anything about the murder itself, so was automatically bound to be more prejudicial than probative, yet all of it went before the jury in a grotesque display of character asassination. It wasn't even needed - the character assassination had already been completed by the media long before the case came to trial.

Offline marty

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It's just all deceit and lies. Make believe.

Offline marty

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I do not understand this opinion at all. And it's this kind of thinking I worry was in the jury's head.

That was exactly the point mate.

Offline Baz

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That was exactly the point mate.

But the opinion itself, that liking Manson clearly shows an unhealthy obsession, doesn't make sense to me in either lookout or the jury's minds.

Offline Baz

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Were photographs taken before the body and items were moved?

I suspect I know the answer.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 09:45:PM by Baz »

Offline marty

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But the opinion itself, that liking Manson clearly shows an unhealthy obsession, doesn't make sense to me in either lookout or the jury's minds.

It's how easily they will have been led with the circus going on.

John

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Exactly, nugnug - if the "evidence" about the Manson/Dahlia claimed connection wasn't needed, and since it was completely unfounded (no proof that Luke had ever seen the Dahlia paintings, no proof of an "obsession" etc) why on earth was it before the jury at all?

There is supposed to be a rule about the probative value of evidence having to outweigh its prejudicial potential - what happened to that rule in this case? Bottles of urine, stored after the murder (and an innocent explanation for that), a tattoo obtained months after the murder, a cd bought after the murder... none of that could prove anything about the murder itself, so was automatically bound to be more prejudicial than probative, yet all of it went before the jury in a grotesque display of character asassination. It wasn't even needed - the character assassination had already been completed by the media long before the case came to trial.

You have a very short memory Sandra.  The evidence in relation to events which played out in the family home was introduced to show that Luke was a boy out of control.  A one parent household with an absent father where the youngest son dictated to his mother rather than the other way round.  A 14-year-old child who was allowed to set up a cannabis factory in his bedroom and was allowed freedoms above and beyond his age.  A child who was effectively left to do anything he wanted with little or no parental intervention.  A child who did not understand right from wrong and was seldom disciplined, this was an important part of the evidence against Luke and the jury accepted it.

Your innocent explanation excuse just doesn't cut any ice.  You are still making excuses for Luke Mitchell, apparently you haven't yet learned a lesson from the Prout and Hall cases?

Luke Mitchell has no alibi for the period of time when Jodi was murdered. His own brother disputed his claim that he was at home.  He was seen by two independent witnesses who described his clothing exactly while he was lurking a matter of yards from the murder scene just minutes after it occurred.

Now you tell me Sandra, on a section of main road with few pedestrians, what are the chances of two male youths wearing exactly the same clothes being in the same quiet spot at exactly the same time?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 10:29:AM by John »

Offline sandra L

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You have a very short memory Sandra.
Interesting claim, since I'm doing all of this from memory.

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The evidence in relation to events which played out in the family home was introduced to show that Luke was a boy out of control.

Which events were those? Luke making the family dinner 4 evenings a week? Helping out with the family business?

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A one parent household with an absent father

And?  Anyay, Luke's father wasn't "absent" - Luke spent every weekend with him. You may have forgotten that Jodi, too, was part of a one parent family - best be careful what inferences you imply about one parent families, I think.

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where the youngest son dictated to his mother rather than the other way round.

Not according to Jodi and Judith. The evidence shows that Judith had threatened to tell Luke's mother about something he and Jodi had done that they houldn't have, and Jodi begged her not to because of how strict Luke's mum was. Judith told the police that Jodi and Luke didn't normally meet until around 6pm because Luke "had to" cook the dinner because his mother and brother worked.

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A 14-year-old child who was allowed to set up a cannabis factory in his bedroom

Now you're just being silly.

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and was allowed freedoms above and beyond his age.


Careful again - Jodi was allowed to smoke cannabis, and have underage sex - her mother knew about both. Are you suggesting Jodi was also "out of control?" What's being described here are a couple of ordinary teenagers, doing things that ordinary teenagers do - you might not approve, I might not approve, but it won't change the fact that that's what teenagers do, and it certainly doesn't suggest they're all "out of control." Remember, Luke was doing well in school, getting good marks in all of his classes - not really "out of control" at all, was he?


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A child who was effectively left to do anything he wanted with little or no parental intervention.  A child who did not understand right from wrong and was seldom disciplined, this was an important part of the evidence against Luke and the jury accepted it.


See above - there was no substantiated evidence of any of this - it was merely suggestion and conjecture. A child who did not understand right from wrong, and a mother who didn't give a damn what he got up to would not have arranged to extend his curfew time to allow him to see Jodi safely home of an evening would they? (That is in the evidence, from both sides.)

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Your innocent explanation excuse just doesn't cut any ice.  You are still making excuses for Luke Mitchell, apparently you haven't yet learned a lesson from the Prout and Hall cases?

Why would I do that? I had two girls just about Jodi's age, living in exactly the area the murder happened, going to school 500 yards from where the body was found. For the record, I was never "involved" in the Adrian Prout case - I discussed it, on the basis of available information, online with others, that was the extent of my "involvement." I do not regret my involvement in the Simon Hall case.

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Luke Mitchell has no alibi for the period of time when Jodi was murdered. His own brother disputed his claim that he was at home

Neither do Joseph Jones, or Steven Kelly, or Ferris and Dickie, on the same basis you make this claim. Someone made a phone call from Luke's home landline to Scotts caravans during this period - we know where his mother, brother, grandmother and father were, so who do you suppose made that call? His brother did not "dispute" Luke's whereabouts initially, as I've explained elsewhere. Mother and brother both ate dinner when mother came in from work - who do you suppose cooked the dinner they ate, or did it somehow make itself?

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He was seen by two independent witnesses who described his clothing exactly while he was lurking a matter of yards from the murder scene just minutes after it occurred.

That'll be the dark haired, tall/ medium height youth wearing jeans and trainers with a jacket they couldn't say whether or not it was zipped up but could later read the writing on the t shirt underneath. Oh, yes, that'll be the description given after Luke's pictures appeared in the papers, and the whole area was awash with rumour that Luke was the killer. Those will be the "independent" witnesses who originally claimed to have seen the youth nearer to 6pm close to the entrance to Newbattle Abbey College, and not "near the entrance to the path," the independent witnesses whose statements begin "I have been shown a newspaper article (by police)... and asked..."

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Now you tell me Sandra, on a section of main road with few pedestrians, what are the chances of two male youths wearing exactly the same clothes being in the same quiet spot at exactly the same time?
No idea, but it's irrelevant, because their descriptions (one from a fleeting glance in a rearview mirror) were originally nothing like Luke on the evening in question, the timings were changed, the location of the sighting was changed - what are the chances this "evidence" was shoehorned (badly, as it turned out) to fit a particular agenda? And, for the record, in the summer, it's not an area with "few pedestrians" - granted, it's not a busy town street, but neither is it a deserted pathway.

Offline sandra L

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And if the sightings weren't of Luke/Luke & Jodi, who were they of? Where are these mystery people who vanished off the face of the Earth?

Could have been anybody, since none of the descriptions fitted Luke or Jodi, and all of the timings were changed. We don't know for sure what time Jodi left - 4.50, just after 5 or 5.30. Andrina Bryson's sighting described a girl in blue bootcut jeans slightly lighter than the plain blue sweatshirt she was wearing. (The colour of the Newbattle High School sweatshirt,  incidentally). Jodi was wearing very baggy trousers with a black zip up hoodie with a huge orange "Deftones" logo across the back, and two smaller logos on the sleeve and the front.

Andrina Bryson's description was of a youth "late teens to early twenties" with brown, thick, messy hair with a clump standing up at the back. He was wearing "fisherman" style clothes - jacket and trousers both of the same colour/design. Her sighting was originally much later - well after 5pm.

Fleming and Walsh described ordinary jeans and trainers - at a bit of a loss to what he was wearing on top, so it changed a number of times, a youth with dark hair, no fringe, his fringe covering his face (yes, that's what the evidence says).

So who are these three people, since none of them are Luke or Jodi.

Offline Baz

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Your innocent explanation excuse just doesn't cut any ice.  You are still making excuses for Luke Mitchell, apparently you haven't yet learned a lesson from the Prout and Hall cases?

Hi John, nice to meet you.

I've been reading about this case on lots of old forums and you were at one point very passionate in your defence of Luke, to the point of a lot of your posts being moderated even. So I was wondering what the evidence was that came out that changed your mind so dramatically?

I understand that both Prout and Hall eventually ended up confessing to their crimes despite having allowed people to campaign for their innocence for years. This must have been so hard for their families and their supporters. But isn't not having the fight knocked out of you or to not be so jaded by experience that you give up something, to be admired? I think it is.   
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 01:49:PM by Baz »

Offline Baz

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Stop doing this.

Jodi isn't accused of anything.

I think the idea is that these things don't make you a murderer, hence why they are mentioned as true of Jodi also.

It's not an accusation.

Offline Baz

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These things didn't get Mitchell convicted.

No they did not, because they are not evidence of murder. I think that's sort of the point.

Offline sandra L

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Stop doing this.

Jodi isn't accused of anything.

Stop doing what? Telling the truth? Stating the facts? I've said for 12 years, I do this as much for justice for Jodi as for Luke. I can't bear to think of how badly she was treated by the police officers involved in this case - from the treatment of the crime scene onwards.

From everything I've learned about her, Jodi was feisty, strong, passionate, and had her own ideas and opinions- she wasn't a sheep, she liked to find out things for herself rather than taking things at face value.

The portrayal of Jodi as it has played out over the last 12 years is, in my opinion, both an insult and a betrayal of the vibrant, multifaceted, complex and interesting person she was.

The point I was making in the post from which you quote is that it cannot be claimed that smoking cannabis and having sex at 14 are indications of teenagers being "out of control" - if it is accepted as "evidence" for one, then it has to be accepted as "evidence" for all others as well, and I do not agree that either Jodi or Luke were "out of control" because their young relationship became physical or because they both, like many of their friends, smoked cannabis.

In fact, my criticism in all of this is reserved for John Ferris, who supplied all of the youngsters - maybe if he hadn't made cannabis so easily and readily available, those kids wouldn't have started smoking it in the first place - remember, Jodi was smoking cannabis before she met Luke, and we know where she got her cannabis then.

Offline sandra L

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These things didn't get Mitchell convicted.

Technically, that is correct. However, this was a wholly circumstantial case, and the introduction of these things to support the claim that Luke was "out of control" contributed to the case presented to the jury as information on which inferences about his "character" could be drawn.

The tangled mess that follows from that, combined with the hysterical media coverage for a year and a half before trial may have led jurors to make emotionally charged assumptions and decisions, rather than the more impartial and logical considerations we should be able to expect.