Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 730359 times)

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Offline Bridget

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2 suggestions:

1) The discussion between Mat and Grahame be taken to Roch's fight thread, and

2) The phrase 'I suggest you are mistaken' be used, since it tends to put people's backs up a little less than 'you are a liar'.
....just cos I eat worms...

Neil

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Mat, I think you would have to accept that by forming an association with John, you have left yourself wide open to attack.  Grahame is very passionate about this forum and has obviously been here for ages.  I believe that the loyalty he has demonstrated towards this site, affords him the right to post with less restraint than others.  I know that this is not the official line but in the real world, that's the way things work. 

Did he say anything that bad, really?

Offline maggie

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Mat, I think you would have to accept that by forming an association with John, you have left yourself wide open to attack.  Grahame is very passionate about this forum and has obviously been here for ages.  I believe that the loyalty he has demonstrated towards this site, affords him the right to post with less restraint than others.  I know that this is not the official line but in the real world, that's the way things work. 

Did he say anything that bad, really?
Well said Neil ;D

guest154

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mat I never mentioned anything about your relationships. My post was general to all young men being able to understand women. It was you yourself who seemed to think I was referring to you especially. I don't know what your relationship status is and I don't want to know thank you. Not everything I say is about you. Read my post again and tell me in all honesty if I was referring to you and if you think I was then tell me how I know about you? Because I don't. So can you see how silly this accusation is?

You know well enough what my relationship status is. You made a dig about it a few months ago along the same lines as your post in this topic but this time you just didn't mention my name. But feel free to deny it, Grahame. It must feel pretty shitty to post so much rubbish and then feel you have to back down when you're called upon it.


Mat, I think you would have to accept that by forming an association with John, you have left yourself wide open to attack.  Grahame is very passionate about this forum and has obviously been here for ages.  I believe that the loyalty he has demonstrated towards this site, affords him the right to post with less restraint than others.  I know that this is not the official line but in the real world, that's the way things work. 

Did he say anything that bad, really?

He's called me a twat, moron etc... in fact tonight he called me Hitler. I find that offensive.


2 suggestions:

1) The discussion between Mat and Grahame be taken to Roch's fight thread, and

2) The phrase 'I suggest you are mistaken' be used, since it tends to put people's backs up a little less than 'you are a liar'.

Mistaken about his first post, maybe although it seems a bit convienient. But as for being bloggsandson .....that was a lie. Blatantly.

Well said Neil ;D

You might not think calling someone Hitler is bad, I do though.

Offline grahameb

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Mat, I think you would have to accept that by forming an association with John, you have left yourself wide open to attack.  Grahame is very passionate about this forum and has obviously been here for ages.  I believe that the loyalty he has demonstrated towards this site, affords him the right to post with less restraint than others.  I know that this is not the official line but in the real world, that's the way things work. 

Did he say anything that bad, really?
Well thank you for saying so Neil. But it does not however excuse me from posting abuse. I do get carried away sometimes and I should apologise to mat for any such abuse. I a really nice guy really. Well thats what the doctor at Rampton said before I released his neck. ::)

Neil

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2 suggestions:

1) The discussion between Mat and Grahame be taken to Roch's fight thread, and

2) The phrase 'I suggest you are mistaken' be used, since it tends to put people's backs up a little less than 'you are a liar'.

Hello Bridget,

I see that you're at it now!  With the morse code, I mean! :)

I'm afraid that I don't have enough time on my hands to attempt to translate it.

Offline sandra L

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Mat said
Quote
But would it really damage her career and credibility if she was wrong? Because if you believe that then isn't her career damaged from this happening in cases previously?

We need to get a couple of things straight here, I think. Firstly, I don't have a "career" - I don't support people claiming wrongful conviction for financial gain, job promotion (I don't have a "job"), or recognition for myself - my "public" persona, as far as Luke's case is concerned, came about because of the local negative reaction to Luke's case - I had worked "behind the scenes" for four years - no-one knew who I was, or what I was doing. But someone let it be known not only who I was, but where I was - when the book was published I decided it was safer if everyone knew who I was, just in case.

The media communication with myself over the years has been at Luke and Corinne's request- they were crucified by the media, and didn't trust any of them - they began to run media enquiries by me, and that is how I ended up making statements, etc, on the Mitchell family's behalf.

Secondly, the case - singular - to which Mat refers here, is the Adrian Prout case. I am not ashamed of my involvement in that case, but it is probably as well to clarify what that involvement was and what "damage" it did.

We were approached at WAP and ased if we would host a website for Adrian. Having done all our usual checks, we set up the website, based on the evidence we had seen. As always, a forum discussion was set up to accompany the website. During that discussion, I did what I always do, and argued that, with no body, and a number of conflicting pieces of evidence, nobody could be sure that a murder had occurred. Various aspects of the evidence, as it then stood, were discussed.

Then Adrian took, and failed, a polygraph test, and confessed that he had murdered his wife. We had to wait a couple of days for confirmation that (a) the confession was genuine, and (b) the resultant search had found Kate's body. (The website and forum were suspended during this period.) Immediately we had confirmation, we opened the website and forum, with all content removed, and an apology to Kate's family was posted on each. Those were left visible for 14 days, and then the sites were taken down.

Without Adrian's confession, there was absolutely nothing in the evidence which warranted a conviction - I believe that we absolutely have to be rigid in our determination that cases must be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, or we open up the possibility of a state/justice system free for all, where anyone can be accused and convicted on nothing. That is a terrifying prospect, and I know too many people it has already happened to - I don't want to see any more, but sadly, because ordinary people really don't believe it can happen, or that it's only a very, very rare occurrence, and could never happen to them, it's not a top priority in most people's minds.

It certainly wasn't something I gave a lot of thought to in 2003 - I knew about the "famous" cases from the past, and thought they were terrible, but I had no idea how bad the problem really is.

That is why I am not ashamed of my involvement in the Adrian Prout case. I would much rather take the risk of potentially being fooled on occasion than sit back, knowing what I do, and do nothing. For what it's worth, through all of the cases I have been involved in, to a greater or lesser degree in the last 9 plus years, Adrian is the only one whose claim of innocence has been destroyed - all of the others, over the years, have produced more and more evidence supportive of their innocence. It's a track record I can handle - I don't pay much heed to the critics, since I don't see most of them even attempting to do what I do every day of the year.

guest154

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Well thank you for saying so Neil. But it does not however excuse me from posting abuse. I do get carried away sometimes and I should apologise to mat for any such abuse.

Erm. Thanks?  :-\

Offline grahameb

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You know well enough what my relationship status is. You made a dig about it a few months ago along the same lines as your post in this topic but this time you just didn't mention my name. But feel free to deny it, Grahame. It must feel pretty shitty to post so much rubbish and then feel you have to back down when you're called upon it.


He's called me a twat, moron etc... in fact tonight he called me Hitler. I find that offensive.


Mistaken about his first post, maybe although it seems a bit convienient. But as for being bloggsandson .....that was a lie. Blatantly.

You might not think calling someone Hitler is bad, I do though.
Well I've been called hitler as well and a nazi. but people can and are abused in very polite terms believe it or not.

Neil

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[quote author=mat link=topic=551.msg115756#msg115756 date=


He's called me a twat, moron etc... in fact tonight he called me Hitler. I find that offensive.


Mistaken about his first post, maybe although it seems a bit convienient. But as for being bloggsandson .....that was a lie. Blatantly.

You might not think calling someone Hitler is bad, I do though.
[/quote]

I've been called a lot worse Mat!  Not by Grahame though, I hasten to add!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 09:42:PM by Neil »

guest154

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Well I've been called hitler as well and a nazi. but people can and are abused in very polite terms believe it or not.

So? Not by me you haven't!

Mat said
We need to get a couple of things straight here, I think. Firstly, I don't have a "career" - I don't support people claiming wrongful conviction for financial gain, job promotion (I don't have a "job"), or recognition for myself - my "public" persona, as far as Luke's case is concerned, came about because of the local negative reaction to Luke's case - I had worked "behind the scenes" for four years - no-one knew who I was, or what I was doing. But someone let it be known not only who I was, but where I was - when the book was published I decided it was safer if everyone knew who I was, just in case.

The media communication with myself over the years has been at Luke and Corinne's request- they were crucified by the media, and didn't trust any of them - they began to run media enquiries by me, and that is how I ended up making statements, etc, on the Mitchell family's behalf.

Secondly, the case - singular - to which Mat refers here, is the Adrian Prout case. I am not ashamed of my involvement in that case, but it is probably as well to clarify what that involvement was and what "damage" it did.

We were approached at WAP and ased if we would host a website for Adrian. Having done all our usual checks, we set up the website, based on the evidence we had seen. As always, a forum discussion was set up to accompany the website. During that discussion, I did what I always do, and argued that, with no body, and a number of conflicting pieces of evidence, nobody could be sure that a murder had occurred. Various aspects of the evidence, as it then stood, were discussed.

Then Adrian took, and failed, a polygraph test, and confessed that he had murdered his wife. We had to wait a couple of days for confirmation that (a) the confession was genuine, and (b) the resultant search had found Kate's body. (The website and forum were suspended during this period.) Immediately we had confirmation, we opened the website and forum, with all content removed, and an apology to Kate's family was posted on each. Those were left visible for 14 days, and then the sites were taken down.

Without Adrian's confession, there was absolutely nothing in the evidence which warranted a conviction - I believe that we absolutely have to be rigid in our determination that cases must be proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, or we open up the possibility of a state/justice system free for all, where anyone can be accused and convicted on nothing. That is a terrifying prospect, and I know too many people it has already happened to - I don't want to see any more, but sadly, because ordinary people really don't believe it can happen, or that it's only a very, very rare occurrence, and could never happen to them, it's not a top priority in most people's minds.

It certainly wasn't something I gave a lot of thought to in 2003 - I knew about the "famous" cases from the past, and thought they were terrible, but I had no idea how bad the problem really is.

That is why I am not ashamed of my involvement in the Adrian Prout case. I would much rather take the risk of potentially being fooled on occasion than sit back, knowing what I do, and do nothing. For what it's worth, through all of the cases I have been involved in, to a greater or lesser degree in the last 9 plus years, Adrian is the only one whose claim of innocence has been destroyed - all of the others, over the years, have produced more and more evidence supportive of their innocence. It's a track record I can handle - I don't pay much heed to the critics, since I don't see most of them even attempting to do what I do every day of the year.

Thanks, I see. You were convinced of innocence until the lie detector which led to a confession - although that confession actually didn't shock a great many of people.

I wasn't being a critic - the comment that the lost case would damage your credibility didn't come from me. Although I do sort of agree with it.

As for you saying you don't have a career. Of course you do.  A career/job is how someone makes their living.

Offline Bridget

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Hello Bridget,

I see that you're at it now!  With the morse code, I mean! :)

I'm afraid that I don't have enough time on my hands to attempt to translate it.

I actually put that in my sig a couple of weeks ago, it's a response to Hartley's code. Off the top of my head it says something like:

.. or an anorak with nothing better to do.

:)
....just cos I eat worms...

Neil

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I actually put that in my sig a couple of weeks ago, it's a response to Hartley's code. Off the top of my head it says something like:

.. or an anorak with nothing better to do.

:)
Thanks Bridget,  I did actually look it up! :)

Offline grahameb

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Didn't Lamberton support Prout once? I seem to recall something along those lines?

Offline sandra L

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Right, I'm off now - can't keep up with all this stuff. I came here to discuss MoJs - it's virtually impossible to do so with all the other squabbles going on - I don't know who's who, or what your various gripes are with each other, but really, there's no way of having any sensible debate in the midst of this.

Last two questions - SF had an old criminal record from his youth- he had not been in trouble for many years by the time of Jodi's murder.

The SCCRC submission - the vast bulk of the submission was made by highly qualified legal personnel - I am not a lawyer, and would not dream of trying to behave like one - I think I explained earlier that the submission included a large number of legal arguments, tied to the actual practicalities of the case as it progressed. I am not qualified to make those arguments, and was very, very grateful indeed, for the input and assistance of those who did that, pro bono, on Luke's behalf.